MP Forum Tone

Mike Lane wrote: Didn't say no trolling. But if you're going to talk shit you better be prepared to back it up out in the world.

Yea right.. when was the last time you got into an argument that resulted in a fist fight?

Just the other day I was tailgating a Jeep that was driving the speed limit in the fast lane. The Jeep hit the brakes for a speed camera so I blew the horn. The Jeep got in the middle lane, rolled his window down and yelled something out the window. As I drove past I chuckled. The second I pasted the Jeep I recognized the driver was a friend I hadn't seen in years! So I slowed down and rolled my passenger window. I thought either way this should end with a laugh. The guy won't even look over after I slowed down.

Unless the two people are in a room trolls can say whatever they want. Even then most people walk away rather than back it up,

aleks sebastian posted a comment here at the beginning and it got deleted. or was it a dream?

Bill Kirby wrote: Yea right.. when was the last time you got into an argument that resulted in a fist fight? Just the other day I was tailgating a Jeep that was driving the speed limit in the fast lane. The Jeep hit the brakes for a speed camera so I blew the horn. The Jeep got in the middle lane, rolled his window down and yelled something out the window. As I drove past I chuckled. The second I pasted the Jeep I recognized the driver was a friend I hadn't seen in years! So I slowed down and rolled my passenger window. I thought either way this should end with a laugh. The guy won't even look over after I slowed down. Unless the two people are in a room trolls can say whatever they want. Even then most people walk away rather than back it up,

More like having to deal with diminishing partners or just generally being excluded from the community for too much shitposting. I know I consider my words since my name is up front. Unlike my Facebook life where I frequently fling shit and have lost real friends.

Tim Lutz wrote: congratulations master-of-spray, you don't climb better than 98% of the chuffers that post here!

Tim Lutz wrote: huh? are you day drinking?

"I climbed with Hank Caylor. I knew Hank Caylor. Hank Caylor was a friend of mine. And Chuffer, you're no Hank Caylor."

Gotcha Mike,

I don't have a Facebook page so I didn't understand your original comparison. I would have to agree based on conversations I've had with those who are on Facebook.

Now that bring u that up. I'm glad to have a place to socialize, shit talking or.not, that will NOT be seen by anyone from work. No one at work cares about climbing so I never worry they'll stumble on MP. Someone bought up a good point about "climbers" having thick skin and enjoying all the dumb shit that goes here. I would agree with that too.

Bill Kirby wrote:Someone bought up a good point about "climbers" having thick skin and enjoying all the dumb shit that goes here. I would agree with that too.

To a point. When the usual suspects who have some psychological need to make their presence known and dominate conversations to the point of posting endless negativity overrun the place it gets pretty tiresome and detracts from the MP experience, which is primarily meant to be as a place to share helpful beta. It is noteworthy that many of the most uncivil of the posters add the least route and area content, if any.

What is needed most I think is not so much auto mechanisms or some sort of community ranking device (I have a lot of reservations about most of the suggestions mentioned so far) is just a little self control and reflection on the part of the posters. Just think for a minute before hitting the send button: Why am I posting this and will it add to the original purpose of MP? And go ahead and use the delete or edit button when you have posted something that on second thought is not so witty as you thought, likely to be misunderstood or just the result of verbal diarrhea. And don't be so whiny when you are too out of it to realize you are being an asshole or haven't taken your meds and mommy and daddy have to clean up after you.

Look back at the flame threads. The worst offenders are all pseudonyms. Look at those of us using our names, forceful opinions but not garbage. It's an obvious fix. But not a silver bullet, personality conflicts would reemerge. That is how it was back in the Climbing Boulder.com days. The degree of energy back then dwarfs what this place is now and it was goddamned interesting

M,

That sounds good if it doesn't take the fun outta this place. I don't want people to overthink every post because they worry about getting banned or their post deleted.

Mike,

That sounds like a much better start than censorship or voting off people like Survivor.

Edit: a picture of your face might help too. I've been stopped out climbing and at the Mountaineer because another MPer or NEice poster saw my picture.

Mike Lane wrote:Look back at the flame threads. The worst offenders are all pseudonyms. Look at those of us using our names, forceful opinions but not garbage. It's an obvious fix. But not a silver bullet, personality conflicts would reemerge. That is how it was back in the Climbing Boulder.com days. The degree of energy back then dwarfs what this place is now and it was goddamned interesting

Agreed. I often disagree with some of your sentiments (climbing and political wise), but I don't ever recall being irritated by your tone or content; to the contrary, I think your contributions are a real positive around here. Polite disagreement -- even if its sometimes sarcastic etc -- is great. However, as Mark Sprague and Mike note in the posts immediately above, the issue is posters who repeatedly write offensive/derogatory/inflammatory completely non-constructive garbage that degrade the site. And yes, often these folks use pseudonyms (often with multiple accounts) and just spew crap just to see it fly. Moreover, in general it is true that those who fling the most sh*te, almost never have useful route or beta contributions and they just weigh the place down.

Still, as others have stated, I don't know how to functionally deal with these folks, but it would be good to cut down on them a bit...and to be clear, I am all for the clever zinger to make a point (Colonel Mustard comes to mind), and I too hope that these folks and their wit stay around because it would also be a shame to see the forums become bland vanilla mush.

Thank you Tony Bubb and BigNobody, you guys are awesome.

Tim Yutz thinks 13a/b is an unassailable grade only for the raddest of the rad, too bad for you. After a couple hundred of them, 13's aren't really that hard.

kisses

Bill Kirby wrote: Mike, That sounds like a much better start than censorship or voting off people like Survivor. Edit: a picture of your face might help too. I've been stopped out climbing and at the Mountaineer because another MPer or NEice poster saw my picture.

I am waaay too ugly for a profile picture

I think that a better written code of conduct would go a long way towards cleaning up content on the message boards. Right now, the de jure CoC is "don't be a jerk", but that's not what's actually enforced. Realistically, it's don't be overtly mysoginistic or racist (though I don't see much of the latter here), and don't personally attack the admins/mods. Being a jerk to noobs/gumbies is tolerated, for example.

A well-written code of conduct, describing exactly what sort of behavior will get you banned, coupled with regular enforcement of that code of conduct, could easily clean up a lot of the negativity on the forums.

Temporary bans/warnings might also help. It's less drastic to send a personal message to a user about what they did and why they can't post for a week than it is to ban them from posting at all. With a temporary ban, users would have the option to choose to self-censor themselves, rather than being expelled from the community entirely. If bad behavior persists, admins would have more grounds to permanently ban a user, since they've demonstrated a consistent pattern of behavior that they're unwilling to change.

And honestly, there's probably only about six users that are responsible for the majority of the aggressively misogynistic posts that I've seen on MP in the past few weeks. Giving them a list of rules, warning them if they break them, and banning them if they persist would deal with most of the problem.

trailridge wrote:To increase climbing content, it would be great if REI offered discounts for quality posts. Like 10% off for a good trip report. Well...you ask how do we determine if a trip report is quality or someone just trying to get a coupon. There could be "like" button and after 10 likes...Boom 10% coupon delivered. Maybe people that would otherwise not share a good adventure, share it for the enjoyment and valuable information of the MP community.

climbing friend,

an representative of REI could come slap user in sweaty, smirking face every time they are posting your smart-comments!

yes you shall ban and censor those totally angry and inappropriate or sexist postings, but you shall not censor the holy rights of the troll. It is for obvious at least half reason for most people utilizing forums through tubes of internet - either you troll or you are amused by others' troll.

I my own meaty self have been praised by an admin for my high quality writings through these very same tubes.

The ability to hide threads from certain posters would be a huge asset. Then, people who aren't interested in the BS can just not see posts by those people.

The whole world is telling how to behave right now ! I'm so sick of micro aggressions and unintended insults that I could scream . When I was a boy gay bashing involved kicks to the head and women had to deal with "macho men" who wanted to play grab ass. The level of improvement has been staggering! Women and gay people have had the whole country adopt new attitudes and it was needed.
Now I'm being micro managed down to the phrases I use and words that I choose. Now the MP mods are getting involved. Everyone has to answer to the intelligentsia . I say BS to all that! While not a troll I value them. Why? they set the bar very low and that's good because a low bar allows everyone to say their piece. Even those who don't know the recommended words or phrases.

Trying to make a more detailed code of content doesn't work. Most reasonable people can figure out what "Don't be a jerk" means to a working degree and if they get a hint they have strayed out too much by a deleted post or message they adjust. The people who are the problem don't and will expend enormous amounts of energy trying to wiggle around and pick apart any code semantically or otherwise so they can keep doing what they are doing. The problem is not in any mechanism or code of MP, it is in people's inadequate social development. Responsibility can't be foisted off on a code.

The simple code also allows for some flexibility which helps to not choke the life out of the forum, as everybody is worried about.

djh860 wrote:The whole world is telling how to behave right now ! I'm so sick of micro aggressions and unintended insults that I could scream . When I was a boy gay bashing involved kicks to the head and women had to deal with "macho men" who wanted to play grab ass. The level of improvement has been staggering! Women and gay people have had the whole country adopt new attitudes and it was needed. Now I'm being micro managed down to the phrases I use and words that I choose. Now the MP mods are getting involved. Everyone has to answer to the intelligentsia . I say BS to all that! While not a troll I value them. Why? they set the bar very low and that's good because a low bar allows everyone to say their piece. Even those who don't know the recommended words or phrases.

Before we were all posting on forums you dealt directly with the people you were addressing and they let you know if you were rude, either directly or by not having anything to do with you afterwards. If you sent in a letter to a magazine it was checked by an editor.

djh860 wrote:The whole world is telling how to behave right now ! I'm so sick of micro aggressions and unintended insults that I could scream . When I was a boy gay bashing involved kicks to the head and women had to deal with "macho men" who wanted to play grab ass. The level of improvement has been staggering! Women and gay people have had the whole country adopt new attitudes and it was needed. Now I'm being micro managed down to the phrases I use and words that I choose. Now the MP mods are getting involved. Everyone has to answer to the intelligentsia . I say BS to all that! While not a troll I value them. Why? they set the bar very low and that's good because a low bar allows everyone to say their piece. Even those who don't know the recommended words or phrases.

Are you saying that since there's been a lot of improvement, we don't need to continue improving?

Do you personally want to be discriminating or offensive? If not, do you want to know when you're doing it, so that you can stop?

Kent Richards wrote: Are you saying that since there's been a lot of improvement, we don't need to continue improving? Do you personally want to be discriminating or offensive? If not, do you want to know when you're doing it, so that you can stop?

The only issue I see has been much more noticeable from this past election cycle. You disagree with me? Well then you are a bigot, racist and misogynist. Everyone is either afraid to offend someone or is quick to shut down difference of opinion because they consider it offensive to their frail sensibilities.

That being said...a jerk is a jerk.

M Sprague wrote:Trying to make a more detailed code of content doesn't work. Most reasonable people can figure out what "Don't be a jerk" means to a working degree and if they get a hint they have strayed out too much by a deleted post or message they adjust. The people who are the problem don't and will expend enormous amounts of energy trying to wiggle around and pick apart any code semantically or otherwise so they can keep doing what they are doing. The problem is not in any mechanism or code of MP, it is in people's inadequate social development. Responsibility can't be foisted off on a code. The simple code also allows for some flexibility which helps to not choke the life out of the forum, as everybody is worried about.

I guess my thoughts with regards to a code were more aimed at some individual's feelings that moderator action was arbitrary or biased against certain people. Codifying the type of behavior viewed as unacceptable might make things feel less arbitrary.

For example, everyone likes to hate on sport climbers and gumbies that toss rocks off of cliffs. Mostly, people laugh and move on, or throw some shade at trad climbers for being old and weak. Nobody really gets hurt, and the dialog doesn't reinforce any societal bias against anybody else, since at the end of the day sport and trad climbers are all dirty smelly hippies in the eyes of the greater world.

The same rhetoric, though, when directed towards a gender, sexual orientation, or race, is clearly unacceptable. Having a code of conduct that states that individuals are prohibited from attacking others on the basis of gender, sexual identity, or race would give the mods something to lean on and reference for transgressing individuals while, at the same time, implicitly stating why we're tolerant of the hate against sportos.

I agree that most people here understand why hating on trad climbers for their unnatural love of pink tricams is different than hating on women for wearing yoga pants. My hope would be expounding on the difference between those two things would give the minority that don't get it an explanation for why they should stick to hating on people for climbing-related things.

All that being said, "don't be a jerk" is probably still a great #1, and probably sufficient for most people. I guess everything else would be more of a description of what that means in the context of the community that MP wants to create than a detailed set of internet laws.