Ask a Badass: Flash Foxy's Shelma Jun

BigRed11 wrote: Rick Blair, yes an admin could remove a post that is filled with hateful neo-Nazi content that reveals personal information and calls for violence. I think most of us would agree that is a good limitation on freedom of speech. My point is that freedom of speech is not absolute - not on MP, not in schools, not even in our legal system.

Your views of free speech limitation are based on whether someone can infer offense. That is a very low standard. Perhaps you could get together with some other MP admins and develop a speech code so we will know when we are crossing the line?

BigRed11 wrote: Sure! An example that immediately comes to mind is a guy speaking up when he's in a group of guys who are saying problematic things about women. Or speaking up when someone makes a racist/sexist/homophobic joke. Rick Blair, yes an admin could remove a post that is filled with hateful neo-Nazi content that reveals personal information and calls for violence. I think most of us would agree that is a good limitation on freedom of speech. My point is that freedom of speech is not absolute - not on MP, not in schools, not even in our legal system.

I'm not sure where you hang out, but my friends and associates aren't making problematic statements to women or making racist jokes. So correcting this sort of thing daily might be a struggle.

As for Shannon's censorship, I think we both may have a little confirmation bias going on.

Shannon says this-

Shannon Davis wrote:when our community is as unwelcoming as its been here, we reserve the right to delete posts and ban users who break that rule (and any user can flag an offensive post).

You hear that Nazis will get censored.

I hear that Shannon will delete and ban posters who disagree with the political agenda he/she is promoting (and is encouraging folks to flag posts so he/she will have an excuse to do so.)

@Helen- I'm not sure which of us is half-full/empty. You don't hear me saying I'm too old to get better at climbing.

1. Touche, friend!

2. Shannon's a he??

Jesus Rick, this always drives me absolutely bonkers. There's absolutely no 1st amendment guarantee of free speech in the private sphere. Last I checked, MP is not a government entity, therefore right to free speech does not exist. The admins can censor at their damn pleasure. Let's just stop with the childish 'free speech' arguments.

shelma needs to post a few responses so we can move on from this boring thread....

Old lady H wrote: Shannon's a he??

Actually, I don't know. I initially assumed female, then for some reason switched to assuming male. He/she is probably Elena.

I edited my latest post so as to avoid any risk of micro-aggressing.

I edited this one so I wouldn't be as likely to hit my 15 post daily limit.

Mark E Dixon wrote: Actually, I don't know. I edited my latest post so as to avoid any risk of micro-aggressing.

So you admit to a sexist gender assumption, then think you can go back and fix your piggy attitude with a quick edit? Hm?

Oh wait. I assumed female.

Never mind.

I know, right!

m kelley wrote:shelma needs to post a few responses so we can move on from this boring thread....

+1

the schmuck wrote:Jesus Rick, this always drives me absolutely bonkers. There's absolutely no 1st amendment guarantee of free speech in the private sphere.

I never made any such claim.

the schmuck wrote:Last I checked, MP is not a government entity, therefore right to free speech does not exist. The admins can censor at their damn pleasure. Let's just stop with the childish 'free speech' arguments.

I can ask can't I? I don't consider free speech childish. I consider what is going on at college campuses across the country disturbing and I would be troubled if it starts showing up at places like MP.

This thread is gonna rack Foxy's brain. It's like cyber war. Women have it so rough.

All I'm saying is that you do not have, and should not expect a guarantee of free speech in a venue like this. It makes no sense to complain about it, and just makes the complainer sound ignorant.

Btw, college campuses get federal & state funding, and are therefore a 1st amendment grey area. Really, this something that should be learned in 5th grade civics.

climbing friend,

you have problem with the microaggression article, that is reasonable the "research" was perhaps somewhat silly and shallow, but haz already been discussed on internettzz.

you feel overwhelming and unending need to do the spraying, negative stuff, through tubes of internet, as if it is your god-given right and final and most holy act before the gods, about promoting women only climbing festivals - you are indeed in needing professional help and must re-evaluate your life.

this is worst thread EVVARRRRRR!!!!

do you even troll?

I think this thread was designed to give attention to Shelma Jun, regardless whether she is badass or not. And I do believe it has done that. We all know who Shelma Jun is now- I didn't before, now I do. I also learned about micro-aggressions.

Still the thread was about questions and I have a few.

Questions for Shannon:
Is this going to be an on-going trend for Mtn Project? It seems that you are promoting an individual, Shelma Jun, over the actual event, the Women's Climbing Festival? What is REI's stance on this- why is REI interested in promoting/publicizing Shelma?

Questions for Shelma:
What plans do you have next? Is Flash Foxy your only venture or do you have others? How has life been different since your article was published?

Dave T wrote:why is REI interested in promoting/publicizing Shelma?

climbing friend,

for obvious, a vast, corporate microtransactional conspiracy.

Dave T wrote:What is REI's stance on this- why is REI interested in promoting/publicizing Shelma?

It doesn't take a lot of hard thinking to imagine that REI, or really any other outdoor gear company, would like women to feel welcome in outdoor recreation for the simple reason that it doubles their consumer base.

Figure it's basically in the same bucket as offering women-specific equipment

A mercenary position, but IMO not particularly evil (unless you believe women don't belong in outdoor recreation)

Seth, this came up before and was addressed earlier. She hasn't crushed any 5.15s or sent the Dawn Wall if that's what you're asking.

I do think that bringing members of the climbing media in is cool, but it's definitely a different category and kind of weird that she was included in the series. She's definitely a strong climber and way stronger than I'll ever be, though. :o

Patrick Shyvers wrote: It doesn't take a lot of hard thinking to imagine that REI, or really any other outdoor gear company, would like women to feel welcome in outdoor recreation for the simple reason that it doubles their consumer base. Figure it's basically in the same bucket as offering women-specific equipment (especially ski boots, climbing harnesses, et al) A mercenary position, but IMO not particularly evil (unless you believe women don't belong in outdoor recreation)

My point was that, Shannon Davis/REI representative should have promoted the event not the person. And sorry, I just don't get how because they support Shelma this will make all women feel welcome in outdoor recreation. That's ridiculous. I think by aligning with Shelma - it seems they (REI/Mtn Project) are taking a stance on microagressions and supporting Shelma's pseudo-science observational study. This, in my opinion, is what a lot of folks seem to be up in arms about.

I personally think that if this was simply a thread to promote the Women's Climbing Festival it would have been a lot less controversial and supportive of Shelma's work. But instead they made it about her... and it has devolved from there.

Dear MP Community,

Thanks to Shannon for the welcome and to all the folks who took the time to come here and put out some really thoughtful questions. I’d like to make a short statement and then I’ll get to answering some questions.

I truly love climbing and the community that I’ve found through it. I agree with Old Lady H that it’s better than most and I’ve found life long friends and experienced so many adventures that will stay with me forever.

We are all climbers – we have been brought together in this forum through a shared passion for something that has made a significant impact in many of our lives – and I hope that we can find ways to have these discussions in respectful and caring ways.

Sincerely,
Shelma

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I’ll start by answering a broad topic that was brought up by several folks: why I think it’s important to create space for women to climb with other women.

Flash Foxy and the Women’s Climbing Festival came to fruition through an identified mutual desire by many women (including myself) to have places both digitally and physically that connect female climbers and provide them with an opportunity to meet and climb with other women. Some have had difficulty finding female partners but desire to meet more. Others just enjoy climbing with other women and take advantage of opportunities to do so.

I want to be clear that this does not mean all women. We do not represent all women or all female climbing experiences and have never assumed to do so. The Women’s Climbing Festival is a voluntary event that women can choose to attend where we hope to create a space for fellowship, conversation, connection and climbing.

Here are some things that happen when women come to a women’s only climbing event:
• Women climb with women for two days.
• Women who want to attend have the opportunity to meet other passionate female climbers from across the country.
• Women who may have felt intimidated for various reasons to try climbing outside are invited to come, experience climbing outdoors and take introductory clinics in a supportive environment.
• Women gain confidence, skills and stoke, which they take and share with those around them (of any gender) wherever they climb the other 362 days of the year.

Here are some things that DO NOT happen after women come to a women’s only climbing event:
• Women stop climbing with men.

Cheekiness aside, the point I am trying to make is that creating a space for women does that mean we think this is the ideal space or the only space that should exist. I’m not quite sure where that narrative started.

On a personal level, I also hope that we can utilize these events to have discussions on why women seek other women to climb with? What is different climbing with women? Why do we feel that the standard climbing environments do not provide those same feelings? The hope is to discover a way to shift the climbing community, environment and dynamic to reflect all the different types of folks who love climbing.

To see more on my opinions on the importance of women climbing together, you can check out my op-ed for Climbing Magazine here: climbing.com/people/women-i…

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Now on to some specific questions!

Ted Pinson wrote:Your article created quite a stir, for obvious reasons. One arguably valid criticism was that the scope of it was limited to a particular climbing scene in a particular area. Based upon your experiences as a widely-traveled professional climber/writer, do you believe the findings are widely applicable? On a related note, do you plan on conducting any larger follow-up studies to explore this question on a national, or even international level?

Hi Ted. Thanks for the question. Yes, it was quite a stir. There are definitely limitations to this survey as there are to any survey. As the word survey implies, our findings did not reflect every climber’s experience. The majority of the 1,500 survey respondents came from New York (591), Massachusetts (266) and California (108), though we did receive responses from 38 other states and 6 countries. As a self-selection survey, it also means that everyone who participated was already someone who felt that the survey topic was important enough to participate in the survey. I realize now that I needed to be much more explicit on the limitations of the survey data.

A more comprehensive report of the goals, methodology, survey design and limitations as well as the results for reach of the 27 questions (total as well as broken down by male and female) can be found here: flashfoxy.files.wordpress.c…

The survey and article were not meant to be the final say in any way regarding gender in the climbing gym. Rather, it was meant to be a snapshot of experiences that I hoped would spark the conversation around dynamics in the climbing gym how we can continue to work towards making the climbing gym a comfortable space for all users.

I would not be opposed to doing a follow up study on a much larger national or international scale should we be able to access a much larger sample size of climbers. If I were to administer another survey, I would be interested in widening the scope to include analysis of whether race/ethnicity affected one’s experience. This decision would be based on feedback that I received in the survey that many respondents would like to see this type of data gathered. Thanks Ted!

Joe Memory wrote:Any thoughts on the inclusion/celebration of trans/non-binary persons in the climbing world?

Hi Joe (and Rehan). I would love to see spaces and conversations that include/celebrate trans and non-binary persons in the climbing world. This is actually something that I think about often as someone who promotes the empowerment of women through women’s spaces – am I reinforcing the gender binary by putting so much focus on women? All our women’s events are open to anyone who identifies as female and I know of several LGBTQ climbing groups such as CRUX in NYC and Homoclimbtasic but it would be great to see something that explicitly celebrate trans/non-binary climbers. I think all these groups, including Flash Foxy, started because some folks decided that it would be cool to organize – so should you feel inspired to begin a group celebrating trans/non-binary climbers, let me know! I’d love to support in any way I can.

Old lady H wrote:Actually, I'll second Rick's question, but rephrased. Flash Foxy is clever, so is Girls with nuts. Obviously, your intent is not sexist, so.....? And, I would reiterate here, climbing is by far the most egalitarian thing I've ever been involved with. Super great people! Best, Helen

Hi Helen (and the many others who posed a similar question). I was reluctant to answer this question because I think it’s a much larger conversation (to which I will honestly say I don’t have all the answers to) than a forum response but I will attempt to put a few of my initial thoughts here. I think that there is a difference between sexual empowerment and sexual objectification (an interesting comic strip here that attempts to explain the difference: everydayfeminism.com/2015/0…). I don’t believe that women have to desexualized (and neither do men) to ask to be treated with respect or have the spaces that we occupy be a better representation of everyone who is a part of it. I believe we can appreciate someone’s sexiness without objectifying them or making them feel uncomfortable.

On a more esoteric note, the foxy in Flash Foxy always conveyed to me more of “flashing” a climb with style, grace and a fun attitude.

PS. I agree with you that the climbing community is better than most places that I’ve been. I don’t think that means we shouldn’t strive for more but I do love it for that.

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Phew… I know that was a LOT of words. Thanks again to everyone who asked questions and hope y’all spend this holiday weekend touching rocks somewhere fun!