A Plea to Gym Setters

evan h wrote: No. I hangboard plenty, but that's not even half of the equation. My point is not as simple as add more crimps. What I'm saying is I'd like more options that fully represent the combination of hold type and movement patterns found on the rock, specifically at the harder grades. Hanging on a board, while valuable, provides nothing for movement specificity, hence my request for bad feet etc. I'm not advocating for 100% crimps here.

Have you shopped around for gyms? Or is this a trend in your area? I recently switched gyms, mostly due to the quality of setting. The one I left, they mostly just altered the size/spacing of the holds to increase difficulty, but didn't have much variety of movement. The gym I go to now has a large variety of types of climbs, at many difficulty levels. I can climb 5.11s all night and work out a lot of different muscle groups because they're not all crimp-fests and/or reachy dynamic moves.

evan h wrote:hence my request for bad feet etc

Bad feet in the gym is way different (and usually still far better) from bad feet outside. It's impossible to mimic 5.12 or harder outdoor routes at mostly vertical angles.

reboot wrote: Bad feet in the gym is way different (and usually still far better) from bad feet outside. It's impossible to mimic 5.12 or harder outdoor routes at mostly vertical angles.

I'm sure some might disagree with this, but agree with the premise.

Another clarification is that I only boulder in the gym. I've always found rope climbing in the gym a poor and inefficient way to train for rope climbing outside, unless your weaknesses lie in fundamental movement skills or endurance (and poor endurance is often an incorrect diagnosis anyway). My goal routes are almost always on a rope, but I boulder because strength and power are the realms where I stand to gain the most.

So yes, route setting is a totally different can of worms. I'm basically discussing gym bouldering here, where there is, in my mind, potential to set really hard problems that mimic real climbing.

gym setting has gotten a LOT worse over the last year or two. i think a lot of it stems from american ninja warrior, bouldering comps getting more popular, crossfit, etc. the gym i currently go to is literally a waste of time when it comes to trying to train for outdoor climbing. they set these moronic routes where kids run across the room, jump back and forth between several basketballs and leap for an elephant trunk.

i think it is funny that people are so worried about people injuring themselves crimping, yet seem to ignore other aspects of gym setting that produce injuries. weird shouldery shit on easy problems, highball problems with f_d up final moves, placing volumes down low on vertical/slabby terrain, etc.

it is super frustrating trying to put together any sort of training plan using the gym. at this point, i think i am just going to use it as a general warmup for hangboarding/campusing/moonboard.

here is a good subject for a future forum thread: which gym is the worst in the country given it's daily/monthly pass price. that would be an interesting one.

(i agree with reboot - the bad feet in the gym thing doesn't work out very well. however, i think it has more to do with setters not understanding how to use the correct bad feet in the right situations. they tend to just throw on some blackened, greasy dishes. not exactly a good recipe for improving footwork.)

Thank you Slim -- you get it!

I like an abundance of pinch holds (in a position that requires a pinch grip). They may be rare outdoors, but take tremendous strength and a lot of technique. So it's nice to routinely encounter pinches as you develop your technique and improve your grade, because it gives you gradual & steady training over a long period of time.

Possibly relevant videos

Trendsetters: vimeo.com/91557027
Setting for the Future: vimeo.com/170473834

@slim, it sounds like we could be climbing at the same gym. I've lost track of how many times the last move on a boulder is a desperate jump cross to the top of the wall or the amount of pretzel beta I have to use for all the double gastons.

I've more or less had to give up on projecting due to the lack of AC and high amounts of awful slopers they set. Oh well, at least we have a good campus board.

I think another big contributor to this recent growth of the dyno-driven, circus-trick, stupid-human-trick type problems is the international bouldering competitions. I remember a problem from this year where one had to dyno into a no-foot shoulder-stem counter pressure looking move. There was a video of Sean McColl sticking it floating around. Name a single outdoor route or problem in the world with anything like that move and yet that is what is being set for the super stars of our sport. Static'ing from one off balance crimp to another is interesting for the climbing die-hard who appreciate the subtlety but it doesn't draw in the crowds or keep the attention of the up and coming generation like the ninja-warrior type moves.

I'm not sure how to change this issue but we as a climbing community are in some ways bringing this onto ourselves.

Im having this EXACT same conversation with my gym owner. We have a few decent setters that were gone for most of the summer. the problems were being set by boulderers who lacked a concept of flow or anything that required climbing moves. The routes slowly became a series of boulder problems stacked on one another. Other routes were harder grades simply because of small hold on over hanging walls. Replace those same hold placements with bigger holds and its a 5.6

PLEASE give me some lay backs, some rock overs, something that requires body tension and balance!

I will say that they FINALLY added a lower grade (5.10-) to the lead roof so I can practice leading roofs. Prior they had 3-4 routes all 5.11+

JRZane wrote:Im having this EXACT same conversation with my gym owner. We have a few decent setters that were gone for most of the summer. the problems were being set by boulderers who lacked a concept of flow or anything that required climbing moves. The routes slowly became a series of boulder problems stacked on one another. Other routes were harder grades simply because of small hold on over hanging walls. Replace those same hold placements with bigger holds and its a 5.6 PLEASE give me some lay backs, some rock overs, something that requires body tension and balance! I will say that they FINALLY added a lower grade (5.10-) to the lead roof so I can practice leading roofs. Prior they had 3-4 routes all 5.11+

Interestingly, I've been meaning to leave a thank you note at my current gym. The latest sets of holds they've ordered are surprisingly realistic in shape, so it's been some of the closest to real rock I've seen in a gym I can remember. Nlt exactly the start of Aretenophobia, but more like the arete your left hand goes up after the second clip.

slim wrote:gym setting has gotten a LOT worse over the last year or two. i think a lot of it stems from american ninja warrior, bouldering comps getting more popular, crossfit, etc. the gym i currently go to is literally a waste of time when it comes to trying to train for outdoor climbing. they set these moronic routes where kids run across the room, jump back and forth between several basketballs and leap for an elephant trunk. i think it is funny that people are so worried about people injuring themselves crimping, yet seem to ignore other aspects of gym setting that produce injuries. weird shouldery shit on easy problems, highball problems with f_d up final moves, placing volumes down low on vertical/slabby terrain, etc. it is super frustrating trying to put together any sort of training plan using the gym. at this point, i think i am just going to use it as a general warmup for hangboarding/campusing/moonboard. here is a good subject for a future forum thread: which gym is the worst in the country given it's daily/monthly pass price. that would be an interesting one. (i agree with reboot - the bad feet in the gym thing doesn't work out very well. however, i think it has more to do with setters not understanding how to use the correct bad feet in the right situations. they tend to just throw on some blackened, greasy dishes. not exactly a good recipe for improving footwork.)

I have been saying this for years now and keep getting shot down by the setters and hold designers I know. The Boulder Rock Club respects functional training-friendly setting for the most part and I would highly recommend that gym as likely the best overall option in the Front Range area. They also have an excellent campus board and other good training equipment.For the ultimate realistic bouldering experience CATS gym is still in business and you can crimp (or pinch slopers) on indoor V15s that will stay up for months, years or even longer.

When I hear from climbers or setters that parkour/beachball-holds setting is the future, I can only say, "For now maybe." If gym owners are catering to a general population that loves circus trick climbing they had better be prepared to be deserted when the fad dies off, which it will, no question. In the meantime fortunately I have my home gym and a good climate for exploring the thousands of outside boulders and crags nearby

slim wrote:here is a good subject for a future forum thread: which gym is the worst in the country given it's daily/monthly pass price. that would be an interesting one. (

Brooklyn Boulders.

Anyways, I was more playing Devil's advocate than really expressing a strong opinion on the matter, but I do like to avoid excessive crimping and tend to favor overhanging juggy routes when climbing indoors, as I can get a better workout and climb harder without risking injury. I have heard the "move away from crimps to save climbers' tendons" argument from many setters before, however, so I'd say it's fairly likely that this is the main reason for it. It seems like setters are split nowadays between comp-focused and outdoor-focused setting, but unfortunately the split seems to favor the former. Good gyms try to balance both.

I feel like the most popular, classic, awesome routes I've climbed outside have mostly been cool, athletic moves between slopers and pinches. Super crimpy routes, especially at the upper grades, tend to pick up the description "tweaky", and most people that manage to send them once never go back.

I've found the same to be true in the gym. People will do laps on a burly, overhung traverse on blocky pinches. People will do a thin, crimpy problem once and then go back to the pinches because they don't want to screw up their skin/tendons. Everyone loves the blocky pinches, so the gym sets lots of blocky pinches. Why should gyms set routes that are more injury prone and less fun, just because there are lots of injury-inducing miserable routes outside?

evan h wrote: Here's the Great Compromise: All gyms shall cater to the fun crowd, but shall build a Moon Board :)

This. Seriously, it is a great solution. This summer one of my local gyms (Seattle Bouldering Project) built a very nice training area with 2 treadwalls, a moon board, various hangboards, a nice campus board, and 3 fairly large CATS style high-density woody walls at 10, 25, and 45 degree overhangs. Very happy with it, everything I could ask for. Meanwhile, the setting there is terrible for training (the usual mix of slopers, volumes, and jumps). As a result, I haven't climbed on a set boulder problem in the main part of the gym in months. The training area covers everything I need, and the rest of the gym basically is just a smokescreen to keep the gumbys from bothering me in the training area.

Not every gym has the space or resources for such a complete training area, but smaller accommodations are within reach for any gym. A Moonboard is the perfect start, since it provides so much value and takes up very little space.

I don't have a problem with the setting I've encountered at most gyms. Sometimes there is a tendency to have big jugs set a long ways apart, which is fine if you're 6'2" and have a positive ape index, but lame if you don't. Apart from that (and pinches, which aren't my fave either), indoor bouldering is mostly a way to get volume in without blowing out my tips. If you view it as just that, or something you do just because you like it in and of itself, you won't be too disappointed. For example, I like volumes, but mostly because I suck at them and it forces me to work on my weaknesses. I do notice a big gap when I go outside, mostly because, as someone mentioned, lack of feet outside is very different (and far more difficult). For that same reason, my core seems to tire far more quickly outside. Still, I find my forearms have far more stamina and my sessions last as long as my tips do. What's not to like?

ckersch wrote:I feel like the most popular, classic, awesome routes I've climbed outside have mostly been cool, athletic moves between slopers and pinches. Super crimpy routes, especially at the upper grades, tend to pick up the description "tweaky", and most people that manage to send them once never go back. I've found the same to be true in the gym. People will do laps on a burly, overhung traverse on blocky pinches. People will do a thin, crimpy problem once and then go back to the pinches because they don't want to screw up their skin/tendons. Everyone loves the blocky pinches, so the gym sets lots of blocky pinches. Why should gyms set routes that are more injury prone and less fun, just because there are lots of injury-inducing miserable routes outside?

The bigger issue is people not knowing their body's limit with crimping, and people who only fist crimp. Non-crimpy climbs are just as tweaky in other ways: golfer's elbow, shoulder injuries, hard drop knees, hard heel hook, etc. Climbing is tweaky in all aspects. I've seen just as many juggy climbs labeled as tweaky for other reasons.

I prefer routes of gyms where they don't have to stick to a particular color hold for a route. I think that limits what the routesetter can set.

That's why in the Denver/Boulder area the BRC has the best routes (their routsetters are also top notch, also Rockquest in Cincinnati has thoughtful routes) and their organic wall shapes and don't like the trendy Movement/Earthtreks gyms with walls that look like geometric button candy. The BRC has the most thoughtful interesting routes to force certain moves, and not climbing flat against the wall.

People like trendy movement/ET for their longer routes due to high ceilings but for me their routesetting is less creative, perhaps inhibited by the hold colors, and they don't provide intermediates or alternatives for shorter people when making something harder. Yet that's kind of like outside too. There are some routes outside where it is a blank wall until a certain feature, and not matter how small my fingers are unless I'm a chipmunk I can't use a blank wall.

I like pinches because they're fun and it helps hand strength... slopers are less fun but also helpful. I haven't done basketball routes yet but maybe one day. A bit tough because my hand is 6" long from wrist to tip and thus barely any curvature around the basketball.

I personally don't like campusboards, hangboards, treadwalls (they are ok) because I don't like to feel like I'm working out, but like to feel like I'm having fun.

Don't know what your job is, but why don't you become a gym setter?

JCM wrote: This summer one of my local gyms (Seattle Bouldering Project) built a very nice training area with 2 treadwalls, a moon board, various hangboards, a nice campus board, and 3 fairly large CATS style high-density woody walls at 10, 25, and 45 degree overhangs.

This is exactly where I hope things are going. In rock-centric towns, gyms are building these supplemental training spaces and I think it's fantastic. Some people here clearly like gyms the way they are, and this is the compromise to keep all parties happy and engaged.

Every time I see a thread like this I am super thankful that my gym doesn't have any of these problems.