Response to Flash Foxy & Outside Magazine Article

m kelley wrote: Unfortunately, it is true that a lot of the climbing pairs you meet at the gym are dating. Until that changes, yeah, people might assume you and your guy friend are a couple.

I still don't understand why this is so offensive, or sexist according to the article. Climbers who don't know me well have told me they assumed I was dating one or more of my female climbing partners, and I simply correct them. What exactly is offensive about it?

climbing friend,

may i humbly suggest you are harnessing everest-like mountain of pent up sexual frustration rammed into this thread, and instead you are using it as the motivation for extra hangboarding and spreadsheet utilization?

Now let us discuss the overpriced new shoes, exactly the same as from last year passing, except with slightly different shapes and colors appearing on the exterior and more money passing from your wallet.

Just follow your heart. That's what I do.

All your flash are belong to me.

BigRed11 - I won't argue that anyone has the right to tell someone else how they feel or whether or not they feel discriminated against. I'm just saying that in my opinion, regardless of how they feel or interpreted the situation does not necessarily mean they were, by definition, sexually harassed or discriminated against. Meaning the persons behavior could very well have been justified based on the situation and it was simply misinterpreted (perfect example being ClimbLikeAGirls story of the the time another man approached her husband instead of her to ask a question - you have absolutely no way of knowing why he chose to ask her husband, maybe her body language gave off an unintentional vibe). Obviously this isn't always the case but if there are women that are making false assumptions based around innocent behavior and claiming it one way or the other, then how do you expect the presumably guilty parties to change a mindset that wasn't present to begin with? Telling people to check their privilege is 9 times out of 10 not going to work.

Assumptions like those mentioned in the article (e.g. assuming you are waiting for an easy route, assuming your male belayer is your boyfriend, etc.) could be made for a number of reasons, some of which were listed here by a female climber brave enough to speak up who admittedly did the same (e.g. looking like a gumby, etc.).

I guess my point in all of this is that we should be addressing problems we can realistically change rather than this pointing of fingers based off how you interpreted various behaviors from random strangers because there is simply too much room for error. It's not a black and white situation. In a perfect world? Sure, but I would rather focus my time and energy towards the blatant sexist remarks and harassment from the "that was pretty good for a girl" crowd than try to change something clearly out of our control. So yes I apply a filter to the situations I encounter daily and determine the importance of each one as it relates to my life and and the world around me based off my own moral character. It's how we form opinions as human beings.

CBecker wrote: I still don't understand why this is so offensive, or sexist according to the article. Climbers who don't know me well have told me they assumed I was dating one or more of my female climbing partners, and I simply correct them. What exactly is offensive about it?

I think it rubs the wrong way because it sort of feels like the only/main reason I am out in public is on the arm of that man. For all you know, I could be a paid guide the guy has hired. Not saying that's what you (any generic "you") think, just how it feels after a lifetime of it.

I had my own business for quite a while, and it was often assumed I was an employee, not the owner.

BUT, things ARE changing. My hubby was a journalist back in the 80's, and there were still calls on the police scanner back then, where some numbskull called in to report a black man walking with a white woman. The same husband got to be on the mall for the "I have a dream speech". Yes, there's still a lot to be desired, but thank God we HAVE and ARE making progress.

My favorite example is military service. I have personally met a wonderful woman in her ninties, who flew every aircraft the military had. No military benefits what so ever. Just recently, I am very proud to say that a local Guard woman became the first female to graduate as a tank gunner.

I'm only just shy of 60. If you've got a ninety year old out there, start getting their stories. They are an amazing generation, and you will be astounded, once you get them talking.

Best, H.

Daniel Evans wrote:BigRed11 - I won't argue that anyone has the right to tell someone else how they feel or whether or not they feel discrimnated against. I'm just saying that in my opinion, regardless of how they feel or interpreted the situation does not necessarily mean they were, by definition, sexually harassed or discriminated against. Meaning the persons behavior could very well have been justified based on the situation and it was simply misinterpreted (perfect example being ClimbLikeAGirls story of the the time another man approached her husband instead of her to ask a question - you have absolutely no way of knowingng why he chose to ask her husband, maybe her body language gave off an unintentional vibe). Obviously this isn't always the case but if there are women that are making false assumptions based around innocent behavior and claiming it one way or the other, then how do you expect the presumably guilty parties to change a mindset that wasn't present to begin with? Telling people to check their privilege is 9 times out of 10 not going to work. Assumptions like those mentioned in the article (e.g. assuming you are waiting for an easy route, assuming your male belayer is your boyfriend, etc.) could be made for a number of reasons, some of which were listed here by a female climber brave enough to speak up who admittedly did the same (looking like a gumby, etc.). I guess my point in all of this is that we should be addressing problems we can realistically change rather than this pointing of fingers based off how you interpreted various behaviors from random strangers because there is simply too much room for error. It's not a black and white situation. In a perfect world? Sure, but I would rather focus my time and energy towards the blatant sexist remarks and harassment from the "that was pretty good for a girl" crowd than try to change something clearly out of our control. So yes I apply a filter to the situations I encounter daily and determine the importance of each one as it relates to my life and and the world around me based off my own moral character. It's how we form opinions as human beings.

Daniel, I've already pointed out to you that, BY LAW, my crass jokes, even off the clock, even not directed at you, even without the intent to demean you, if overheard by you in our break room, and you are made to feel uncomfortable, my ass could be out the door.

It is NOT because it is "unprofessional", it is because it is harassment (and encompasses much more than sexual, by the way), and is illegal. Push it far enough, and it is hate speech, and you are entering into the criminal justice system.

WHY are these laws necessary? Because of entrenched attitudes, Daniel. Yes, it is not black and white, no, stereotyping is not fair, no, this isn't a huge problem and climbing is even less so.

Daniel, you keep saying "I'll grant you these points, but..." Then you minimize. Talk to the women in your life who you love and are loved by. Dare ya.

The trans guys vid was pretty spot on, by the way. If you or a guy you know could manage to pass as female (pretty darn hard, either direction), go out costumed and give it a try. It's really eye opening to be the "other".

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote: Daniel, I've already pointed out to you that, BY LAW, my crass jokes, even off the clock, even not directed at you, even without the intent to demean you, if overheard by you in our break room, and you are made to feel uncomfortable, my ass could be out the door. It is NOT because it is "unprofessional", it is because it is harassment (and encompasses much more than sexual, by the way), and is illegal. Push it far enough, and it is hate speech, and you are entering into the criminal justice system. WHY are these laws necessary? Because of entrenched attitudes, Daniel. Yes, it is not black and white, no, stereotyping is not fair, no, this isn't a huge problem and climbing is even less so. Daniel, you keep saying "I'll grant you these points, but..." Then you minimize. Talk to the women in your life who you love and are loved by. Dare ya. The trans guys vid was pretty spot on, by the way. If you or a guy you know could manage to pass as female (pretty darn hard, either direction), go out costumed and give it a try. It's really eye opening to be the "other". Best, Helen

When did anyone mention anything about inappropriate jokes or foul language? What does this have to do with the subject being discussed?

climbing friend,

when you are making your assumption, you are making of your ass out of u and me.

If the Westboro Baptist Church is allowed to protest in public I am fairly certain nobody is getting arrested anytime soon for using foul language at the crags. I'm not sure why you keep relating that to the examples I've referenced.

All the answers you seek are in the Bible.

Old lady H wrote: Unfortunately, it is true the guy might get blame, because the other stuff still happens too regularly. Same thing if a woman is murdered. Boy friend/husband has been the answer too often, so that's where the system looks first. Until that changes, yeah, you're going to be first on the list.

Lolz. Can you imagine if someone made this excuse for the injustice shown to African-American's by the justice system?

"We'll it's usually the blacks, so obviously we're gonna look there first..."

Ridiculous

Tim Lutz wrote:When did MP forums turn into a Wymon's Studies class at Wellesly? jus sayin

I don't know. Can't I just sign up for re-education camp and be done with this?

Old lady H wrote: I think it rubs the wrong way because it sort of feels like the only/main reason I am out in public is on the arm of that man. For all you know, I could be a paid guide the guy has hired.

This is what we are talking about. Jumping to extreme conclusions and crying foul. You have absolutely no idea why I assumed you were dating. Maybe during the 30 minutes I climbed next to you at the crag I picked up on the fact that you were not a guide. Or maybe I saw him give you his sweatshirt, or whatever else the case might be.

I have no doubt women suffered horribly (and still do) at the hands of men, but as you said numerous times, times are changing. Why is it such a wild idea to suggest women start giving men the benefit of the doubt? I assure you that men will be much more likely to hear you out and police their own actions if they know that they aren't constantly on trial.

Daniel Evans wrote: ...I have no doubt women suffered horribly (and still do) at the hands of men...

Not in my hands. i´m pure love.

.....

20pages

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd13MeARR4w

WTF? PLEAS DON´T WASTE THE POSTS AND USE THEM WISELY

Replaced my previous post with this meme. 20 pages!!!

Sanllan wrote:WTF? PLEAS DON´T WASTE THE POSTS AND USE THEM WISELY

You spelled please wrong

Bill Kirby wrote: You spelled please wrong

plz use periods sir.