Response to Flash Foxy & Outside Magazine Article

n00b wrote: It's pretty simple: if it's gray, then wait until tomorrow when the fog lifts. Been there, and done exactly that. It's not so difficult.

Tell that to someone who is drunk and can barely walk. If it was that easy we would not have all the DUIs that happen today.

You know what is positive about the Trump candidacy? It showed us how many of our Facebook friends are racists.

You know what is positive about this thread? It confirms that some climbers are sexists.

So here is bottom line: Women can wear whatever the want to the climbing gym. Some clothing may correlate to men staring at them/ hitting on them. Is this a consequence? Possibly. Does this mean that it is the woman's fault? No.

Some of you guys sound like frat-boys defending date rape.

And why would anyone think that the climbing community is immune to the problems of the rest of society?

ViperScale wrote: Tell that to someone who is drunk and can barely walk. If it was that easy we would not have all the DUIs that happen today.

Like I said. Been there, done that. More than once. I know other men that have too.

during and after the olympics, how much was written about male swimmers' hot bodies in their speedos? what about female beach volleyball players in bikinis? from what i've seen, the latter garnered a lot more attention. it's almost our culture has disproportionately sexualized the female body compared to the male body, but maybe i'm crazy

Brandon.Phillips wrote:You know what is positive about the Trump candidacy? It showed us how many of our Facebook friends are racists. You know what is positive about this thread? It confirms that some climbers are sexists. So here is bottom line: Women can wear whatever the want to the climbing gym. Some clothing may correlate to men staring at them/ hitting on them. Is this a consequence? Possibly. Does this mean that it is the woman's fault? No. Some of you guys sound like frat-boys defending date rape. And why would anyone think that the climbing community is immune to the problems of the rest of society?

I don't like frat-boy tools at all. But at the same time you got to take some degree of responsibility for what happens.

It isn't like someone is giving you a drink and not telling you there is alcohol in it or forcing you to drink it. So when you drink in an unsafe area and get hurt part of that responsibility is still going to be on you.

We don't live in a nice world where everyone is looking you for your best intentions. I guess maybe you missed that, is it also date rape when you lie to some girl and she sleeps with you? I mean the guy wasn't being honest and the reason you sleep with him wasn't true.

Honestly maybe they need to come up with a criminal charge that is like half-rape.

Rape-? Or would that be "sexual harassment+"?

Dan Austin wrote: it's almost our culture has disproportionately sexualized the female body compared to the male body, but maybe i'm crazy

Here we have it. Have you ever considered that male and female brains work differently in response to visual stimulus? You have at least heard that androgens can cause aggression right? And males produce more androgens.

I feel really late to the conversation but here's a few of my own personal thoughts.

I'd like all the men in this conversation to ask themselves these few questions:

~ How many times have you been roofied?
~ How many times have you been unwillingly groped (in public or otherwise)
~ Are you ever concerned about being in proximity of another man or men while otherwise alone?
~ How many times have you been catcalled?
~ How many times have you been followed or stalked?

Personally, I've have each of those things happen to me. Some many times. The fact that they happened at all is disturbing and disgusting. How many times do you think Daniel Evans has had to worry about any of that? How many men are worried about being locked up in a basement and sexually tortured for years before anyone finds them?

I shouldn't need to say that these (and many, many other types of incidents) are things that women think about or have had happen to us, whether we like to or not. Sure, not all these things happen to every woman but no one needs a statistic to know that these things DO happen, much, much, much more frequently to women than to men.

Is the climbing community typically a much safer, more respectful community than the general public? Absolutely! Does this mean its perfect? Absolutely not.

If 650 women (65% of ~1000) say that they've had unwanted advances, or discrimination of some kind while at a gym, it doesn't matter if it's a good static sampling or not. That's still 650 women who have been discriminated against in some way and have spoken out to say so. Not listening to them, be it via a survey or not, is essentially saying their voices do not matter.

So you say some women are hypersensitive to it? Maybe this is why:

First, I'm going to make an assumption (you can shoot me down now if you want): Climbers are typically "in-shape". This means that compared to the 68% of Americans that are overweight or obese, climbers are, in general, nice to look at. Men, Women, Non-Conforming, or whatever. Be proud, we're a beautiful bunch!

My experience is that I get hit on, oogled, checked-out, catcalled, etc. at least a few times a week. I'm not trying to be full of myself here, this is just my experience. Most of the time my boyfriend points it out to me while I try not to notice. I also know that this is a relatable experience among of my lady friends.

Let me suggest that the women that are being hit on, oogled, or checked-out in the gym are also experiencing the same frequency of all that outside of climbing. Can you fathom why these ladies maybe just want a bit of a respite from it all when they're just trying to get a forearm burn, and possibly just trying to forget about the douchebag that keeps making unwanted advances while on her daily commute? I'm not saying all men need to be hypersensitive to all women all the time. Maybe just consider another perspective other than your own once in awhile-- put yourself in her shoes.

I once busted my ankle really badly in a climbing gym while bouldering. I had 5 dudes "spotting" me (aka, looking at my ass). If any of them had put their arms up, I wouldn't have stepped off the pad awkwardly and sprained it. I've also had the actual "ass spot" where the dude literally just grabbed my ass when I fell.

I had a guy walk into the main entrance of the gym and lock his eyes on my body while I was belaying my partner. He walked 50 feet past me (getting a full 180 degree view) to the men's locker room before finally looking away. Mega-ultra creepy.

Then there's the fact that other climbers always defer to my partner/boyfriend when asking "What did you climb today?" to which he usually responds that they should ask me since I'm the ropegun. I'm never taken seriously as a climber among a group of newly acquainted male climbers until I'm somehow able to work my resume into the conversation.

If you seriously don't think there is an issue, there is seriously something wrong with you.

I implore anyone who witnesses any kind of sexist, misogynistic, or condescending behavior to speak up (especially men) and point it out to the offender regardless if it is in a climbing situation or not. Sure it's not pleasant to talk about, but the only way to change is to make the behavior known.

Therefore it's acceptable? By the same logic, it's in our nature to club our rivals to death if they try to steal our food/mate. Does that mean that murder and aggravated assault should be legal because it is ";in our nature";?

The "it's in our nature" reasoning is absolutely fallacious. It's called self control, people. We participate in a sport in which we overcome our NATURAL senses of fear and self-preservation to climb cliff faces 100s of feet high. Surely we can overcome the desire to sexualize every member of the opposite sex who wears tight clothing...

Also, Em Cos thank you for taking the time and energy to respond for the last several pages. You were able to put into better words what I was screaming at my computer while I was reading this earlier.

We may be out your way end of October, beginning of November. Let's go climbing! <3

Ted Pinson wrote:Therefore it's acceptable? By the same logic, it's in our nature to club our rivals to death if they try to steal our food/mate.

Yes, a man's desire to look at a woman is just like clubing someone over the head, good point.

wonderwoman wrote: You really are revealing a lot about yourself in this thread. And man, it is frightening.

Ever heard of manslaughter? Alot of the cases if anything fall under that category. It is when you aren't intending to kill someone but you do it by accident.

And sure plenty of these cases that fall into rape but I would bet alot of them would be better off classified as a rape version of manslaughter.

Hey and even as a guy I used to have this girl who would sit outside in a car for hours at a time. Yea, it is kinda creepy but she never really hurt anything.

Like I said if you have been roofied and had that many people touching you than maybe you should be looking at how you are living your life. Not saying that doing any of those things are legal but at the same time you put yourself in those areas it is going to happen.

Not saying don't press charges if someone does these things but at the same time take some personal responsibility for what you are doing and just don't put yourself in situations where it can happen.

Not much different than all the stupid blaming cops for shooting kids with a bb gun. Media loves to cover these as innocent little kids but you know what they are wannabe gang bangers and when they get shot for carrying around a gun I don't feel that bad for them.

It is different with women because technically they aren't doing anything legally wrong like the kids who are getting shot but at the same time don't carry the gun around or hang out or act the way to attract that kinda attention you will be alot less likely for it to happen to you.

That said ClimbLikeAGirl I bet if you go back and think through what you were doing when those things happened there may have been some things you could have done differently for them not to happen. It is the media acting like that means you are "blaming the victim"... If I go mutlipitch climbing I could die, I understand this risk and I take it. If you dress in such a way that attracts unwanted attention maybe you should change the way you dress or where you go.

ViperScale wrote:Hey and even as a guy I used to have this girl who would sit outside in a car for hours at a time. Yea, it is kinda creepy but she never really hurt anything.

You are making a fool of yourself.

I wish this thread would end as Em Cos wrote some of the most well thought out responses I have seen on Mountain Project and this thread is now degrading into garbage.

If you're just jumping in on this thread now go read pages 1-4, that's where the important stuff lies.

Slogger wrote: You are making a fool of yourself. I wish this thread would end as Em Cos wrote some of the most well thought out responses I have seen on Mountain Project and this thread is now degrading into garbage. If you're just jumping in on this thread now go read pages 1-4, that's where the important stuff lies.

I am not making shit up, it happened when I was growing up. My stalker girl at least wasn't as bad as my friend's stalker girl who spent like every night outside his house for like a month.

ViperScale wrote: I am not making shit up, it happened when I was growing up. My stalker girl at least wasn't as bad as my friend's stalker girl who spent like every night outside his house for like a month.

Okay but at any point were you actually scared for your safety? Or afraid that she might enter your house and overpower you and rape you?

He's not implying you made anything up. The implication (and I agree) is that your total lack of ability to think about this in anything even remotely approaching thoughtful, nuanced manner is embarrassing (for you). You're just throwing out sexist tropes, but really earnestly. If you weren't a regular poster I'd suspect you were trolling, but it seems like you're serious. Hence the embarrassment.

ViperScale wrote: Ever heard of manslaughter? Alot of the cases if anything fall under that category. It is when you aren't intending to kill someone but you do it by accident. And sure plenty of these cases that fall into rape but I would bet alot of them would be better off classified as a rape version of manslaughter. Hey and even as a guy I used to have this girl who would sit outside in a car for hours at a time. Yea, it is kinda creepy but she never really hurt anything. Like I said if you have been roofied and had that many people touching you than maybe you should be looking at how you are living your life. Not saying that doing any of those things are legal but at the same time you put yourself in those areas it is going to happen. Not saying don't press charges if someone does these things but at the same time take some personal responsibility for what you are doing and just don't put yourself in situations where it can happen. Not much different than all the stupid blaming cops for shooting kids with a bb gun. Media loves to cover these as innocent little kids but you know what they are wannabe gang bangers and when they get shot for carrying around a gun I don't feel that bad for them. It is different with women because technically they aren't doing anything legally wrong like the kids who are getting shot but at the same time don't carry the gun around or hang out or act the way to attract that kinda attention you will be alot less likely for it to happen to you. That said ClimbLikeAGirl I bet if you go back and think through what you were doing when those things happened there may have been some things you could have done differently for them not to happen. It is the media acting like that means you are "blaming the victim"... If I go mutlipitch climbing I could die, I understand this risk and I take it. If you dress in such a way that attracts unwanted attention maybe you should change the way you dress or where you go.

This is just horrible.

ViperScale wrote:That said ClimbLikeAGirl I bet if you go back and think through what you were doing when those things happened there may have been some things you could have done differently for them not to happen.

But don't worry ladies, Daniel Evans doesn't feel like there's a problem with sexism in the climbing community! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Tim Lutz wrote:Looking at booty shorts is a 'micro-aggression' LOLZ No one wears 2 ounces of fabric on their butt because they need to; it is because they want people to look. but if you do: micro-aggression you misogynist pig-fvcker! The title should be 'How Gender Affects Your Experience at the Gym' Try this 'study' at Planet Fitness, I'd love to see those numbers

Do you not realize how ignorant you sound? You are assuming that because a female wears a certain article of clothing it is simply because they want to impress men. Hate to break it to you and your Roxanne-esque shnoz but that's not the case. Your view just reinforces the idea of the whole article.

Antonio Caligiuri wrote: Okay but at any point were you actually scared for your safety? Or afraid that she might enter your house and overpower you and rape you?

I have guns in my house and I don't really worry about anything except being scared of heights. Females can buy guns as well girl I hike with alot always carries a gun with her when she hikes alone just encase.