Response to Flash Foxy & Outside Magazine Article

Any one knows the gym or crag where Mss. Foxy climbs?. will try to be there next summer.

+1 to Em Cos's polite, respectful responses to the OP. The sexism and misogyny in the OP's open letter were plain as day to many of us, but the OP was oblivious until Em Cos (and others) called it out.

+1 to all the women and men who speak up when they see, hear or read something sexist or misogynistic. You rock. Keep it up.

-1 to any future posters who flame this thread accusing those who called out the OP of shouting him down, leveling personal attacks, calling folks hypocrites, etc. etc. There are healthy ways to have this conversation, and many people are engaged in it across our society. It's 2016.

From what I understand, the really nasty online attacks on women who speak up get sent via PM, so most of us will never see it. Just like the really nasty sexism, misogyny, harrassment, and violence happens where we don't see it, which allows some people to go on pretending it doesn't exist.

JSH wrote:Here's an example (about gender but not about sex) of microaggression, and why you should care: I am a climber of the lady persuasion. Also, as you can see below my avatar/pic, I am an admin. This means I know my climbing area like the back of my hand. Between that and my exceedingly good memory, I am a walking guidebook. I am the person that most of you want to meet at the cliff when you're just getting to know it, because I will tell you all about what routes you want to get on, and what's nearby if that's occupied, and what the descent is, or how the pro is, and, and, and. These days I mostly climb with my husband. He is, as you'd guess, of the male persuasion. When we meet people at the crag, they almost always exclusively talk to him, because: male. Men know things and are experienced climbers, women are just along probably for the first time, right? That is the gendered assumption that we are all conditioned to make. But: my dear husband has the memory of a small insect. He means well, but he doesn't remember all the things, and what he does he might mis-remember. He is not the walking guidebook; I am. When people only talk to him, they are missing: me. This is what gender-based, and really all, discrimination misses: the full participation of every person.

While I acknowledge that you may be correct for many of your encounters as to the reason why people may be more apt to speak to your husband. I would like to point out that I am much more likely to speak to another male than a female for a couple reasons. Practical: If I'm looking for beta, another male's beta will be better than your average female's for a large male. The second reason is trying to help everyone's feelings. Articles like this actually make me less likely to speak to females and treat them equally. I read this and think the only way to avoid micro-aggression is to not speak to females. Which apparently is another micro-aggression... Damn... I'm screwed... Ironic isn't it? By trying to keep everyone happy and respect everyone, I'm probably being more discriminatory.

Mike13 wrote: I read this and think the only way to avoid micro-aggression is to not speak to females. Which apparently is another micro-aggression... Damn... I'm screwed...

Do you not see the difference between approaching and giving unsolicited advice, and approaching andasking for advice?

Let me lay it out clearly. Giving unsolicited advice assumes you know something she doesn't, and that she needs to hear it from you even if she's not asking. It's arrogant and patronizing.

Asking for advice assumes that maybe she has something to teach you, and shows a little humility and common respect.

I do. But some people seem to interpret any conversation with the opposite sex as flirtation so I avoid it unless spoken to first. (I'm also not a fan of the tone you took with your edit n00b) I was simply trying to respectfully offer an alternative opinion.

This thread needs Bruno-cx. Where are you Bruno?

!lol¡ its funny because I´m i guy and get unsolicited advice every time in any sport.

Might be because I´m beautiful and you all are just ugly.

Bye,

ViperScale wrote:I am assuming most women if they are intelligent know that if they dress a certain way will attract most guy's attention. So unless the doctors are going to get on some meds that they force all guys to take it isn't likely going to change, so that means in an unpolitically correct fashion that if you dress like a slut expect to get looked at like a slut. I am sure there are plenty of cases where women are doing nothing to get attention and you have those tools that keeping going at them but at the same time going and getting wasted with some guy so you don't know which was is up and than calling rape when you wake up in their bed is also not rape imo (unless you can prove he was slipping stuff in your drank without you know of course, but still people generally know when they should stop drinking).

This is fucking ridiculous. Its a climbing gym for gods sake. Athletic clothing is tighter fitting. Women wear this clothing because it is functional in a climbing harness not because they want dudes staring at their butts

Mike13 wrote:I do. But some people seem to interpret any conversation with the opposite sex as flirtation so I avoid it unless spoken to first. (I'm also not a fan of the tone you took with your edit n00b) I was simply trying to respectfully offer an alternative opinion.

Sorry. I shouldn't have been so condescending.

I sincerely doubt that approaching a woman at the crag asking for beta or directions to a climb will be misinterpreted as unwelcome flirting. In my experience, almost everyone, male or female, is happy to give directions when asked.

C. Holt wrote: This is fucking ridiculous. Its a climbing gym for gods sake. Athletic clothing is tighter fitting. Women wear this clothing because it is functional in a climbing harness not because they want dudes staring at their butts

If you think that's ridiculous, you should see the stares I get when I wear my speedo to the gym. Come on everyone, its athletic clothing. Maybe things would go better for me if I shaved around my crotch.

Tim Lutz wrote: If you aren't looking at one butt or the other, something is wrong with you

All I see it the word "Roxy". I can't take my eyes off of it.

So in case you didn't already figure it out, Flashy Foxy is a brand. As in, it has a mission, a logo and a point of view. Outside Magazine just likes to attract controversy to sell magazines.

flashfoxy.com/

So, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Em Cos wrote: " bet you don't have to wonder if any of the 30 women in that room are going to try to follow you out to the parking lot and take things further than ogling whether you like it or not. Women have to worry about this. Does it happen every time? No. Do they have to think about it every time? Yes. "

If a guy asked you out in the parking lot of the yoga studio and you found him attractive, you would be offended and disgusted by that?

CBecker wrote:But I just don't see it as being some type of systemic misogyny.

I think the point of the article and this discussion is that whether or not you see it as systemic misogyny is not very important since you are a dude and aren't the one negatively impacted by it. My female friends, coworkers, wife, daughter, and posters on mountainproject forums have a vastly different experience in life than I do, and it isn't my place to tell them what they should and shouldn't put up with. If I get creepily stared at in a gym, I don't really have to worry about being followed out to my car and raped, and then blamed for it afterwards for wearing yoga pants.

Is it really that onerous to have a little empathy?

simplyput wrote: Ah, blaming the victim. Bravo. You know, it is possible to see an attractive person scantily clad and NOT stare, whistle, giggle, have steam shoot from your ears or have your eyes bulge from your skull. It is also possible to have many alcoholic drinks with a person you are attracted to and NOT have sex, attempt to have sex or even get to that always embarrassing state where you CAN'T have sex. Placing blame on someone else for your shitty actions is immature and shows a true dearth of moral aptitude.

Sorry but sometimes it is partly the victims fault. Noone is forcing her to drink. If I break into a building and fall and get hurt it isn't the building's owner's fault that they fell down and got hurt.

If I am going to drop acid or mushrooms I make sure I am in a safe environment where I can't get in trouble... if I go drop acid in the middle of a forest and get hurt it is my fault.

The thing is when 2 people are drinking and neither one knows what they are doing you can't really just blame the guy for having sex because who knows if he is even knows what happened. I drank to much and got lost in the woods and another chick I was with did the same. Is it rape if I happened to have sex with her because neither one of us knew where we were and ended up sleeping on the side trail an hour away from the camp site. Why is it never the girl who is raping the guy when people get drunk and have sex?

And I know probably alot of cases the guy may still be aware of what he is doing but it is really hard to prove who is at fault, you got to watch what you do and not expect everyone else to be a gentleman.

Our justice system is pretty retarded though. These days if your kid goes to a party and does underage drinking and gets drunk than rides home with a friend. That friend is drunk and gets in a wreck you can sue that friend for what happens...

C. Holt wrote: This is fucking ridiculous. Its a climbing gym for gods sake. Athletic clothing is tighter fitting. Women wear this clothing because it is functional in a climbing harness not because they want dudes staring at their butts

I wear jeans when I climb and it works perfectly fine... you don't have to wear short shorts that are riding up your but crack to climb.

ViperScale wrote: Sorry but sometimes it is partly the victims fault. Noone is forcing her to drink. If I break into a building and fall and get hurt it isn't the building's owner's fault that they fell down and got hurt. If I am going to drop acid or mushrooms I make sure I am in a safe environment where I can't get in trouble... if I go drop acid in the middle of a forest and get hurt it is my fault.

The building owner doesn't know the trespasser is present and has not consented to their presence. The forest is not a person with agency.

The rapist is fully aware that s/he's engaging in sexual conduct with an incapacitated victim, and if s/he is unsure about his/her partner's capacity to consent, s/he is responsible to refrain.

ViperScale wrote: I wear jeans when I climb and it works perfectly fine... you don't have to wear short shorts that are riding up your but crack to climb.

Good for you. Doesn't mean everyone else should have to dress like you just to make sure you don't harass them.

n00b wrote: The building owner doesn't know the trespasser is present. The forest is not a person with agency. The rapist is fully aware that s/he's engaging in sexual conduct with an incapacitated victim, and if s/he is unsure about his/her partner's capacity to consent, s/he is responsible to refrain.

Your talking about 2 people that are drunk in most of these cases even if one is a little more aware of what is going on they normally have at least some in their system meaning their decisions are impaired as well.

It is really hard to say who was more impaired etc at the time. Even if you have eye witnesses (who are generally really poor for know really what is going on) are they sitting there checking the blood alc level of both people every 30mins?

I am not saying there isn't a case where 1 person is blacked our from drinking and another is perfectly aware of what they are doing. I am sure that happens alot and would consider that rape... but alot of times guys get accused of crap that happens that isn't exactly them "raping" some girl.

It is the world we live in you got to protect yourself if you don't want it to happen to yourself don't go get wasted.

I used to know a girl who at the time was 13 and going around sleeping with homeless guys who were in their 40s. Technically any of them could have gone to jail for rape but to be honest they weren't raping anyone.

ViperScale wrote: Your talking about 2 people that are drunk in most of these cases even if one is a little more aware of what is going on they normally have at least some in their system meaning their decisions are impaired as well. It is really hard to say who was more impaired etc at the time. Even if you have eye witnesses (who are generally really poor for know really what is going on) are they sitting there checking the blood alc level of both people every 30mins? I am not saying there isn't a case where 1 person is blacked our from drinking and another is perfectly aware of what they are doing. I am sure that happens alot and would consider that rape... but alot of times guys get accused of crap that happens that isn't exactly them "raping" some girl.

It's pretty simple: if it's gray, then wait until tomorrow when the fog lifts. Been there, and done exactly that. It's not so difficult.