Leaning to Climb Tradtionally Indoors

Mark E Dixon wrote: Do I hear "Woot!"

MY EXACT THOUGHT LOL. Mark you are now the creator of my favorite comment on MP.

Hilton Bennett wrote:because I'd rather know that the climbing walls would cave in before my device failed

If you whip on this onto a T-nut, this may actually happen! (You might rip out a nice chunk of plaster and wood, anyway) The quickdraw bolts on gym walls aren't just screwed into T-nuts in plywood like the holds are, they are welded to the metal framing which holds up the wall.

If you just want to learn to place how to place cams in a parallel crack, you don't even need an actual crag. You can find a mentor to grade your placements on the ground.

I have just submitted a patent for top roping a crack while aiding your way up on gear. If any of you try this, my lawyer will be contacting you.

My system follows a straight crack so if you can figure another system that works for wandering routes involving extending gear etc.. then you may have that patent, I am too exhausted from devising my system to file more climbing patents.

BTW, my patent includes building ground anchors, if you do that while connected to a top rope, I will have to take legal action. This will cost you more than $5000

Hilton,

I'm trying my best visualize myself in your place. You're an engineering student who found something he's passionate about and could apply his skills to. You put in a bunch of time and energy into this project and you really want it to succeed. You won a contest, and you're psyched. For all of that I commend you. I get that. I'm an engineer too, and so are a lot of other people on here. It's awesome when your interests and endeavors combine. However, there are a lot of warning flags here that you should pay attention to.

A lot of engineers make the mistake of holding onto an idea after its useful life because they think it's THE solution instead of learning from it and moving on to the next thing.

Some of the concerns people have posted are about your business model. It seems like you are really focused on intellectual property. However, if the idea doesn't have a good business plan IP isn't going to do you any good. Patents have annual maintenance fees and if your idea really is THE thing and a bigger company wants to take it they can often just violate the patent and draw out the litigation until you are bankrupt. This could be mitigated by having solid investors and steady sales to finance and protect yourself. You really should be telling people about the market and the number of gyms that are ready to buy this thing from you, and what the projected cost will be. I admire your desire to provide a good product without excessive profits, but the reality is "no profit"="no product" and "no plan to generate profit"="no start up $$$"

Hilton Bennett wrote:At this time I'm not selling the company or offering shares in the company; its about making this device affordable, safe, effective, and at the highest grade first, and to do that at the end of the day Native Heights cant owe a bunch of money to investors who are going to push for subgrade materials so they can turn a profit.

Also your concern about investors wanting to force you to use cheap materials shows a lack of experience. No legit investor is going to put their money into a product that inherently has a high risk of serious bodily harm and/or death unless it is proven to be safe i.e. they will want you to prove UIAA compliance and have it verified by 3rd party testing ($$$). 1 wrongful death suite at the beginning of your roll out and your company is toast. Also no gym will buy it if the materials seem cheap so if the thing is cheap you have no sales, and once again, no investors. You're inventing a problem where it doesn't exist and you're putting your emphasis on the wrong thing. To be honest, you haven't presented a business plan that is worth a patent yet. If the market is small then the patent will just be unnecessary overhead because you won't have competitors. One thing you need to think about if you are going to ask for other people's money is Return on Investment.

Hilton Bennett wrote: To date I've easily got over 300 hours of testing and I will continue to test the CAD models under a variation of conditions, and with a variety of materials.

Also you keep saying you've tested the CAD models for a few hundred hours. What does that mean? Are you doing FEA or have you actually built real prototypes and done drop tests? The device isn't on your home wall yet which makes me think you haven't done any real world testing. I get the power of FEA. I've written a few solvers and have done a lot of industry and academic work using simulation. But this problem would require explicit dynamics which is kind of a black art with a million parameters and DOF so if you haven't done any real world testing yet then you should have put your $6k into fabrication and testing.

Hilton Bennett wrote:Nearest trad from my place other than Manchester Bridge is 3 hours+ away. Nearest climbing gym, 12 minutes. Solution, bring trad to 12 minutes away. Done. And next time I go 3 hours away and someone on mountain project says to bring multiple number 3 cams, a number 5 nut, and various other gear I'll be ready, and climbers who have been training indoors will confidently be ready as well.

This is really what worries me though because you may not be ready and think that you are. Maybe if you are climbing 5.6/7 at the crag and you climb 5.12 sport like your profile says. But then you could probably free solo the route. This doesn't teach you need to know if you are going to climb 5.10+ up on gear (or maybe even 5.8/5.9) and you can't really trust someone else's gear beta like that. Some people climb with 20+ feet of run out because they want to travel fast and light. Or they just like to give a minimal gear beta because it makes them feel tough. I always bring extra and then leave it with my belayer if I don't think I'll need it on the pitch. Also do you know any crack technique? Can you hang on a hand jam?

To be honest it sounds like you have almost zero trad experience and/or haven't climbed with anyone who does. I realize it's a drive for you but you should really know what your product is preparing people for before marketing that "they will be confident and ready." A girl died here in Phx at the beginning of the year because she decided to follow a guy attempting to free solo a route. The mountain is chossy, she didn't even have climbing shoes on and she freaked half way up. Rescue teams were on their way when she fell. Granted it was a free solo, but if you're blindly following a gear beta online you might be surprised at how far away from a piece you can get. Hell even with the proper gear you might be surprised. Unmerited confidence in climbing is not a good thing.

I don't want to kill your enthusiasm. Someone mentioned this could be a cool way to get crack climbing on gym walls. That would probably have a larger application and be more valuable. But then again I don't know how big the market is. A lot of the gym climbers I know aren't interested in crack climbing and crack usually comes with the gear territory unless the route is easy. Maybe you've already evaluated the market and have a few gyms interested in buying this. Maybe you've done a lot of real world testing, have a PhD in simulating dynamics with explicit solvers, climb a lot on gear and have done a market assessment to ensure that your product can support the overhead of IP. I don't know, but what you've said so far doesn't lead me to believe any of that is true. What I AM saying is you should consider what people are saying here and learn more about the activity you are designing toward before investing more of your $$$.

Keep designing, keep thinking, keep innovating. My wish is that you can consider what has been said on this forum without quenching your passion for climbing and design.

Cheers,

Phil

I'll echo the general sentiment. I'll add on that I'm always weary of these sorts of fundraising pages since if the idea is good and you've done sufficient market research you should be able to get a small business loan from a bank (particularly for only 75k), which will completely avoid the (relatively unfounded) worries you have with investors.

I'm also curious as to how you view your product differs from the existing rockholdz ( iceholdz.com/store/?categor… )? I suppose the main reason is that you can "reliably" fall on your holds, assuming the placement is good.

One alternative idea (which might use very similar technology) is a way to construct built-in gym cracks that you can lead on gear. I think that would be pretty cool and bit more useful training tool, since good gym crack will have some variety, the whole process will force you to consider good placements vs. blocking possible jams, you have to fit it into the flow of climbing more, etc.

If you were to live in RVA as I have and really want to become a trad climber you either move to another state or drive a shit ton. This device is gonna blow up some morons head with false confidence and kill them IMO. Its like putting someone on a video driving simulator and then turning them loose on the streets.

I don't see this as being very helpful at all.

A) You aren't having to look for placements, and the placement that are there will likely always be perfect. All you got to do is grab the right size. In the real world that isn't how it works.

B) You are not really relying on the gear, which makes sense because noone is going to let people climb up the wall where a piece blowing could mean death. You are just asking for a lawsuit.

+1 for Phil's comment, I wish the OP the best but it sounds like he might be getting ahead of himself.

"they will be confident and ready."

OP, maybe you're placing too much value on these devices, but that doesn't make them worthless in my opinion. Rename the thread title to something less lofty than Learning Trad, and maybe you would have got away with it.

Many consider it reasonable to clip pre-hung draws in a gym as a first step in clipping bolts on rock, with the goal of hitting the rock at least a bit more confident and ready. Plugging cams into these devices is the same idea.

"thats it im going out to buy a treadmill and some large trees to put in my office so i can practice hiking."

^^priceless!

People are spending too much time writing detailed, thoughtful responses on this thread. Bottom line- This is a supremely stupid idea and is not even worth talking about. We've all been trolled basically. This dude got a rise out of everyone, and will construe it all as positive reinforcement to his idea. Not me. I'm not being nice about it- The concept sucks badly, it's ugly as hell, and I hate it. When you said that people can "photo their favorite trad climb" and send it in ... you lost all credibility. You don't get it.

another +1 for Phill's comments.

I think the idea has merit but as many others have said trad climbing is very nuanced. Its not just plugging cams in ideal placements(that takes just a few minutes to learn).

If I were you I would make this a long term goal of your company and start focusing on making holds that mimic jams. Being able to add jams to existing holds for a gym would be a much easier sell. It would add variety to the holds currently available to them.

As a sport climbing I love knowing how to jam, its always great to find a jam that I can use to rest. As a beginner trad climber being able to practice different jams in the gym would have been much more useful.

Another Idea would be to work on something like a hang board where a beginner could practice placing and weighting gear(more then just cams) on the ground, and have other climbers rate there placements. Think practice like at a gym, with the convenience of a cliff.

Or another idea, totally redesign your system as a modular wall that allows you to add cracks / features that are also strong enough to take gear placements. then add bolts to insurance and safety. Still not real trad, but better. It would be expensive to install for a gym so it could be a hard sell. But it something

Having made the transition from trad to sport outdoors, no, I'm not really interested. Particularly if it means somebody is hogging up route space at my gym when I'm trying to get a work out.

Butt-hay, stranger things have happened.

Ben Horowitz wrote:I'll echo the general sentiment. I'll add on that I'm always weary of these sorts of fundraising pages since if the idea is good and you've done sufficient market research you should be able to get a small business loan from a bank (particularly for only 75k), which will completely avoid the (relatively unfounded) worries you have with investors. I'm also curious as to how you view your product differs from the existing rockholdz ( iceholdz.com/store/?categor… )? I suppose the main reason is that you can "reliably" fall on your holds, assuming the placement is good. One alternative idea (which might use very similar technology) is a way to construct built-in gym cracks that you can lead on gear. I think that would be pretty cool and bit more useful training tool, since good gym crack will have some variety, the whole process will force you to consider good placements vs. blocking possible jams, you have to fit it into the flow of climbing more, etc.

Ben, I think the main difference is that you cant take falls on the rockholdz. This device can handle a fall up to 32kN. When the website goes live in a few weeks you'll see the larger version that is basically a long crack system similar to a long volume but built for gear, hands, and falls.
Thanks for the questions! I've talked to a few gyms and I've completed a market analysis directly related to traditional climbing. The market is there its just that the devices don't exist.

Hilton Bennett wrote:Do you know someone who has been wanting to learn trad.. would you be more comfortable with them learning at an indoor gym? I've developed a way to make this possible. Please visit to see how it works, and to help support the production of the device, so we can not only make learning safer

Safe trad climbing involves far more than placing gear. It's a huge disservice to climbers to promote this as a means to "learn trad climbing" rather than simply a tool to practice gear placements.

Hilton Bennett wrote: would you be more comfortable with them learning at an indoor gym?

No.

It's impossible to learn trad climbing in an indoor gym, because mountain sense can't be learned in an indoor gym.

Hilton Bennett wrote:so we can not only make learning safer

This is a red herring.

Trad climbing isn't safe, and anyone who's learning should be taught as much.

Learning gear placement outdoors can be as safe as learning with this device. It's all about the environment and methodology.

Removing the real hazards and obstacles that exist in outdoor climbing neglects to fully prepare them for real trad climbing.

psakievich wrote:Hilton, I'm trying my best visualize myself in your place. You're an engineering student who found something he's passionate about and could apply his skills to. You put in a bunch of time and energy into this project and you really want it to succeed. You won a contest, and you're psyched. For all of that I commend you. I get that. I'm an engineer too, and so are a lot of other people on here. It's awesome when your interests and endeavors combine. However, there are a lot of warning flags here that you should pay attention to. A lot of engineers make the mistake of holding onto an idea after its useful life because they think it's THE solution instead of learning from it and moving on to the next thing. Some of the concerns people have posted are about your business model. It seems like you are really focused on intellectual property. However, if the idea doesn't have a good business plan IP isn't going to do you any good. Patents have annual maintenance fees and if your idea really is THE thing and a bigger company wants to take it they can often just violate the patent and draw out the litigation until you are bankrupt. This could be mitigated by having solid investors and steady sales to finance and protect yourself. You really should be telling people about the market and the number of gyms that are ready to buy this thing from you, and what the projected cost will be. I admire your desire to provide a good product without excessive profits, but the reality is "no profit"="no product" and "no plan to generate profit"="no start up $$$" Also your concern about investors wanting to force you to use cheap materials shows a lack of experience. No legit investor is going to put their money into a product that inherently has a high risk of serious bodily harm and/or death unless it is proven to be safe i.e. they will want you to prove UIAA compliance and have it verified by 3rd party testing ($$$). 1 wrongful death suite at the beginning of your roll out and your company is toast. Also no gym will buy it if the materials seem cheap so if the thing is cheap you have no sales, and once again, no investors. You're inventing a problem where it doesn't exist and you're putting your emphasis on the wrong thing. To be honest, you haven't presented a business plan that is worth a patent yet. If the market is small then the patent will just be unnecessary overhead because you won't have competitors. One thing you need to think about if you are going to ask for other people's money is Return on Investment. Also you keep saying you've tested the CAD models for a few hundred hours. What does that mean? Are you doing FEA or have you actually built real prototypes and done drop tests? The device isn't on your home wall yet which makes me think you haven't done any real world testing. I get the power of FEA. I've written a few solvers and have done a lot of industry and academic work using simulation. But this problem would require explicit dynamics which is kind of a black art with a million parameters and DOF so if you haven't done any real world testing yet then you should have put your $6k into fabrication and testing. This is really what worries me though because you may not be ready and think that you are. Maybe if you are climbing 5.6/7 at the crag and you climb 5.12 sport like your profile says. But then you could probably free solo the route. This doesn't teach you need to know if you are going to climb 5.10+ up on gear (or maybe even 5.8/5.9) and you can't really trust someone else's gear beta like that. Some people climb with 20+ feet of run out because they want to travel fast and light. Or they just like to give a minimal gear beta because it makes them feel tough. I always bring extra and then leave it with my belayer if I don't think I'll need it on the pitch. Also do you know any crack technique? Can you hang on a hand jam? To be honest it sounds like you have almost zero trad experience and/or haven't climbed with anyone who does. I realize it's a drive for you but you should really know what your product is preparing people for before marketing that "they will be confident and ready." A girl died here in Phx at the beginning of the year because she decided to follow a guy attempting to free solo a route. The mountain is chossy, she didn't even have climbing shoes on and she freaked half way up. Rescue teams were on their way when she fell. Granted it was a free solo, but if you're blindly following a gear beta online you might be surprised at how far away from a piece you can get. Hell even with the proper gear you might be surprised. Unmerited confidence in climbing is not a good thing. I don't want to kill your enthusiasm. Someone mentioned this could be a cool way to get crack climbing on gym walls. That would probably have a larger application and be more valuable. But then again I don't know how big the market is. A lot of the gym climbers I know aren't interested in crack climbing and crack usually comes with the gear territory unless the route is easy. Maybe you've already evaluated the market and have a few gyms interested in buying this. Maybe you've done a lot of real world testing, have a PhD in simulating dynamics with explicit solvers, climb a lot on gear and have done a market assessment to ensure that your product can support the overhead of IP. I don't know, but what you've said so far doesn't lead me to believe any of that is true. What I AM saying is you should consider what people are saying here and learn more about the activity you are designing toward before investing more of your $$$. Keep designing, keep thinking, keep innovating. My wish is that you can consider what has been said on this forum without quenching your passion for climbing and design. Cheers, Phil

Phil, thanks for your feedback, very concise, very well said. Look for my website in the next two weeks. The business model and synopsis was completed for the competition and I'm following it pretty closely.
Load rating is the next big step in the process, and I'm not too far out from being able to fund that. As you stated this is an important step in the sense that gyms need the rating before they even talk to their insurance companies. I'm prepared for that, and I'm confident that the device will preform as it has in CAD analysis. I'm certainly not a Phd in anything yet, and I appreciate your expertise in the matters above. I've been running FEA in Solidworks and Ansys and have charted/graphed materials vs loads, over time, to the extent that I can show deflection, deformation, stress, strain, fos, for loads ranging from 1kN to 100kN and in a normal direction(straight down on sport anchor), axial(between the stones, out, down, up), radially on sport anchor(and up which is unlikely but hey), I've also analyzed impact forces over time on the device and shear forces on the bolt holding the device into the wall for each of these points individually and collectively.
I've even been charting combinations of the fea analysis so new stones are easier to run through the variation of tests. I've been doing something similar to this at work for the last 2 years while I'm still cautious enough to really consider results I'm also fairly confident that they are accurate.
As to making people over confident at a skill that takes years of climbing to even begin to possess, that again is not the intention of this device. The intention is to make Learning to trad climb available to everyone. I have friends who have been trad climbing since before I knew what climbing was, but I know that not everyone has a friend like that. I also know from market that a lot of climbers have reached that point where they want to get out and trad climb but they aren't confident learning from friends.
If you want more details on the market analysis, business plan, or just have direct questions please look me up on FB and shoot me a message. I'd love to chat with you more about it.

-Hilton

If you want to salvage any goodwill or creditability for this idea, PLEASE, PLEASE, stop presenting it as a methodology for "learning how to trad climb". At least here in the MP world, you're only shot for building support is to pitch this exclusively as a tool to learn how to place gear, and its a stretch at that.

Take a moment to check in on the site! Perks have been updated per interest and feedback!

Perhaps the best troll ever?

I agree with the others, I am sorry but I do not believe this device is an appropriate way of learning anything about trad. Trad is simply too complex of a topic to learn in the gym, and falling on gear in a gym is not going to teach someone how to climb on gear. About the UIAA certification though:

Hilton Bennett wrote: To be allowed in gyms it must be load rated and UAII certified for insurance purposes and b/c all climbing equipment is.

The UIAA is not going to certify this device. There is no standard written on how to certify your device, so there is no standard under which the UIAA can test it.

theuiaa.org/safety-standard…

If you decide to continue moving forward, there are a few points to consider:

-General climbers are not the ones buying the device, the gyms are. So what do the gyms think? Have you spoken to the CWA? What does the CWA think? How about IFSC? Have you spoken to any major wall manufacturers, hold manufacturers, ect? Again, they are in the know as well.

-How many gyms have actually signed on? Speaking to the manager or owner and getting an informal "that's cool, I'd get one" is a far step short of whipping out the credit card and ordering one. Once they actually run it by their insurance companies, the MSRP number comes out and it's time to pay, you'll likely find many that you thought were on board are not.

I think it's great you're actually trying to create something, but the reality is this is going to be a difficult sell. Best of luck.

It's trolling ,in the sense that he is collecting hits on his website and getting people to talk about it, pure and simple. He doesn't care that people are laying the truth at his feet... for free and with reasoned conviction. He wants to continue defrauding himself with this incredibly asinine idea.