Help Fight Dangerous Products on Amazon from a Dangerously Ignorant Seller

I think we all know that. I think our concern is more first-time rope-buyers / new climbers making the mistake and getting themselves in trouble. Yes, those people would have been irresponsible to not do their homework, but it's nice to at least try and help avoid an easy way for them to get hurt.

I think we might be being a little harsh on this seller. I mean, the picture clearly says it holds 2800 kN (not sure what the ltf stands for). We should be applauding them for selling the strongest rope in the world.

Just FYI - I work at Amazon (not in retail at all, but there's a climbing alias here for the whole company and I'm on it) and this is being brought up to the Sports and Outdoors Retail lead.

Added a review and purcahased pink bondage rope!

I've actually been looking for a static rigging rope and came across that one, and didn't notice the non UIAA at first glance. I thought it was sketchy and wouldn't have purchased, but the fact that I even spent time looking at it is scary.

Added more negative reviews to their products. They also have a sketchy looking harness and a figure 8 belay device made from "Aluminium and Magnesium alloy forging."

Looks like it's been for sale for at least a year! Check out the questions section. Scary. Let's get some negative reviews on this one too.

Question: What is the exact spec of the rope? is it uiaa certified? is it dynamic or static?
Answer: I have not received the rope yet, it is on it's way from China
By Scott Peterson on November 18, 2015
There were no labels on the ends of the rope, nor any paperwork. I thought it was static, but when I rapped from my shed rafters it stretched a bit. It's also pretty thin and had fuzzies on the sheath. If you are trusting your life to a rope, you might want to look for a name brand.
By John on November 18, 2015

Question: Where is the rope made?
Answer: Hi Ernie
It was made in China with good quality.
Delivery within 5 to 7 days for 20m,30m,50m
By Shenzhen century arbor trading… on November 5, 2015

https://www.amazon.com/Dynamic-Single-Rope-BabyLovest-Professional/dp/B01GRLEPC4/ref=cm_rdp_product

"Currently Unavailable"

Success. Savin' Lives.

Nice. Now hopefully the same can be done for the "Arbor" product, and hopefully Amazon can develop some sort of process for ensuring that the products don't reappear.

Brendan Blanchard wrote:Does anyone actually buy things on Amazon that don't come with Prime shipping?

Yes. Many products aren't elegible for Prime, some are obscure, and usually 3rd party sellers can't use Prime shipping.

Yer gonna have to make this as full-time crusade. The version I posted a screen shot of earlier is still there and available, as are a bunch of others. Among the best is this latest word in bondage, strong enough to withstand a minimum of five factor 2 f#cks:

Note the advertising headline and then read that it is a (Japanese bondage) cotton rope. Does the UIAA have a bondage standard?

Kevin, you are a very, very bad man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN29X2HCKpU

I will restate what I said earlier. This is a waste of time. If you're not smart enough to figure out whats junk, then you probably deserve the product you buy (I had this same thought when I saw a tourist in Thailand with his arm around a lady boy).

Shut down one store and another will pop up. You will never stop the flow of knockoff shit from your computer.

To the folks who buy reputable gear on Amazon, consider the reports of counterfeit Petzl biners that were purchased in Asia. Your risk of getting some drop shipped junk is too high. Buy from a reputable source.

Prices on good climbing gear doesn't vary too much aside from sales and store coupons. Wait for the sales and give an FB like. You'll save more money than through Amazon and have real equipment.

i just clicked through the links to this seller's stuff from this thread.

Looks like the seller is gone.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:I will restate what I said earlier. This is a waste of time. If you're not smart enough to figure out whats junk, then you probably deserve the product you buy (I had this same thought when I saw a tourist in Thailand with his arm around a lady boy). Shut down one store and another will pop up. You will never stop the flow of knockoff shit from your computer. To the folks who buy reputable gear on Amazon, consider the reports of counterfeit Petzl biners that were purchased in Asia. Your risk of getting some drop shipped junk is too high. Buy from a reputable source. Prices on good climbing gear doesn't vary too much aside from sales and store coupons. Wait for the sales and give an FB like. You'll save more money than through Amazon and have real equipment.

And as I and others have said... the point of this effort is to protect unwitting consumers, not ourselves (we didn't fall for this, after all). I do agree, however, that there will always be knockoff stuff. But at least now life got a little bit harder for one such counterfitter.

All of this does raise interesting questions related to protecting consumers buying life-critical products like climbing gear: (1) does the US need a set of mandatory standards like CE in Europe for climbing equipment? (2) should the law be changed in a way that would place liability on marketplace operators like Amazon, e-Bay, or Craiglist for sales of products which are patently unsafe and where the marketplace has not put in place adequate safeguards to prevent such sales (which Amazon apparently lacks, even if they were laudably responsive AFTER being notified by consumers)?

If not, fair enough. If so, perhaps this is the kind of lobbying effort that an organization like the AAC could take up.

Just thinking out loud (or onto a keyboard, I guess). :)

JRM89 wrote: And as I and others have said... the point of this effort is to protect unwitting consumers, not ourselves (we didn't fall for this, after all). I do agree, however, that there will always be knockoff stuff. But at least now life got a little bit harder for one such counterfitter. All of this does raise interesting questions related to protecting consumers buying life-critical products like climbing gear: (1) does the US need a set of mandatory standards like CE in Europe for climbing equipment? (2) should the law be changed in a way that would place liability on marketplace operators like Amazon, e-Bay, or Craiglist for sales of products which are patently unsafe and where the marketplace has not put in place adequate safeguards to prevent such sales (which Amazon apparently lacks, even if they were laudably responsive AFTER being notified by consumers)? If not, fair enough. If so, perhaps this is the kind of lobbying effort that an organization like the AAC could take up. Just thinking out loud (or onto a keyboard, I guess). :)

I'm an extremely left leaning liberal. However, doesn't this strike you as encouraging a nanny state that doesn't need to exist? Can't the free market sort this out?

The UIAA is great, why add another?

The AAC has their plate full, they don't need to waste time on this.

Pretty scary how many people could have these ropes.

youtube.com/watch?v=2--VOf8…

A few things:

1.) I would argue the free market has already failed here. I was concerned to see some consumers already using those ropes and facing near-accidents (as posted in the reviews).

2.) UIAA is not a mandatory standard. CE is mandatory for climbing gear sold in the E.U. I would be happy to see the U.S. adopt either as a mandatory standard - agreed that there is no need to make a new one.

3.) Just as context, the U.S. federal government already regulates a wide range of products which can cause harm to consumers. Think about food regulations through the USDA or drug regulations through the FDA. In the consumer products space, the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) already has responsibility for many products, ranging from children's toys to carpets. I don't see too many people up in arms about carpet flammability standards being too "nanny state," nor would I expect the same for climbing gear. (see: ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?S…;c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title16/16cfrv2_02.tpl). The common theme across all of these regulated products is a potential to cause serious harm and the potential for some consumers to not recognize the danger absent proactive government intervention. These are instances in which the free market would fail absent government intervention.

Although you and I know to buy from reputable retailers and to look for CE / UIAA certification, what about a new climber who has never gone to a climbing store? You say "buyer beware." That is a perfectly fair argument, but I think it has limits. If we are talking about benign items like tennis balls or blue jeans, I am ok letting the market sort itself out. When an uninformed purchase can lead to death, however, I'm all for government intervention.

4.) Trying to think through your side of the argument, one argument against standards could be that consumers can always sue manufacturers / retailers for product liability if the product fails to perform as advertised and thus hurts them. (note that products liability does not apply to user error - law.cornell.edu/wex/product…). That would be the ultimate "efficient markets" argument in that the harm caused would subsequently be internalized by the person selling the defective product. I think that breaks down, however, when we are talking about foreign suppliers using U.S. online marketplaces. Here, Amazon disclaims liability and the foreign supplier is essentially judgment-proof (there is no easy way to serve that supplier and bring him / her into U.S. courts). This leaves harmed consumers (provided they are still alive) with no recourse.

Hope that sounds at least somewhat reasonable. I'm done posting but will keep following your replies if you have more to add.

Can confirm, Seller is no longer on Amazon.

Congratulations?

It is absolutely mind-boggling that anyone in this day and age would consider the federal government regulating climbing gear. Have you ever really looked into the effectiveness and inefficiencies of the FDA, EPA, TSA, etc, not to mention the related costs. If they regulate climbing, the next step would be to regulate routes. Add bolts here, close dangerous routes there, ad infinitum.

Greg D wrote:It is absolutely mind-boggling that anyone in this day and age would consider the federal government regulating climbing gear. Have you ever really looked into the effectiveness and inefficiencies of the FDA, EPA, TSA, etc, not to mention the related costs. If they regulate climbing, the next step would be to regulate routes. Add bolts here, close dangerous routes there, ad infinitum.

Because, of course, that's happened in Europe, amirite?