Help Fight Dangerous Products on Amazon from a Dangerously Ignorant Seller

And of course the federal government here is exactly like the government in Europe.

Greg D wrote: And of course the federal government here is exactly like the government in Europe.

Yeah, it has less ability (or desire) to regulate. So your argument is even weaker.

Regulation has its purpose. Nobody wants to go buy a product and have their house burn down because of faulty electronics.

Greg D wrote:It is absolutely mind-boggling that anyone in this day and age would consider the federal government regulating climbing gear.

Agreed.

Climbing is different. Users are expected to be informed and intelligent enough to make their own decisions. Brand names is a marketing tool originally invented to signify QUALITY and they function very well in the climbing world. The stick approach of lawsuits works pretty well too.

European regulation has brought some standards to the climbing world and this is a good thing. Though personally I don't see the current need to have them enforced.

Greg D wrote: And of course the federal government here is exactly like the government in Europe.

European at least is vaguely efficient in regulation because they do so much of it. (It still is a pain in the ass through.)

The US, despite at least being just one country, seems to have more conflicting layers of government when it does regulate. More paperwork, complications and confusion.

Despite all their regulation in Europe. Europe has stronger attitudes of personal responsibility than the US (UK, Australia too). Less of this BS about suing for uneven sidewalks, hot coffee etc...

PRRose wrote: Because, of course, that's happened in Europe, amirite?

The British would obviously disagree with you and the curve of your banana.

Ray Pinpillage wrote: The British would obviously disagree with you and the curve of your banana.

70% of climbers wanted to stay in i'll have you know.

Greg D wrote:It is absolutely mind-boggling that anyone in this day and age would consider the federal government regulating climbing gear. Have you ever really looked into the effectiveness and inefficiencies of the FDA, EPA, TSA, etc, not to mention the related costs. If they regulate climbing, the next step would be to regulate routes. Add bolts here, close dangerous routes there, ad infinitum.

Not to mention requiring UIAA certs for everything would be expensive, hints the reason why there are actually a number of reputable companies that sell some gear that is not UIAA certified yet plenty safe. The certification is not free, and who do you think pays for it? The consumer does. The buck gets passed on.

20 kN wrote: Not to mention requiring UIAA certs for everything would be expensive, hints the reason why there are actually a number of reputable companies that sell some gear that is not UIAA certified yet plenty safe. The certification is not free, and who do you think pays for it? The consumer does. The buck gets passed on.

There are two layers of expense. First you need the EN certification which mostly has to be done by a certified lab (there are various product categories of testing) and depending on the product the mandatory external control of the QC/QA procedures. You can then affix the CE mark if applicable and sell the product in Europe.
Then the manufacturer takes all the above to the UIAA and pays a yearly fee to use the UIAA Safety Label as an advertising feature. The UIAA themselves control and certify nothing, merely take the money.
The whole cost will be in the region of $4-5 thousand every two years excluding the internal costs of QC/QA conformity which destroys the market for small producers.

Jim Titt wrote: There are two layers of expense. First you need the EN certification which mostly has to be done by a certified lab (there are various product categories of testing) and depending on the product the mandatory external control of the QC/QA procedures. You can then affix the CE mark if applicable and sell the product in Europe. Then the manufacturer takes all the above to the UIAA and pays a yearly fee to use the UIAA Safety Label as an advertising feature. The UIAA themselves control and certify nothing, merely take the money. The whole cost will be in the region of $4-5 thousand every two years excluding the internal costs of QC/QA conformity which destroys the market for small producers.

In the EU. In the USA, CE and EN is not a requirement, and there is no official requirement for anyone to send anything to anyone for testing in order to sell it. Accordingly, the UIAA requires USA brands to send their products to one of their affiliates for testing and certification, which is a step that is otherwise not required to sell products in the USA. Also, I believe it is $4-5k per product, not for all products combined, no?

20 kN wrote: In the EU. In the USA, CE and EN is not a requirement, and there is no official requirement for anyone to send anything to anyone for testing in order to sell it. Accordingly, the UIAA requires USA brands to send their products to one of their affiliates for testing and certification, which is a step that is otherwise not required to sell products in the USA. Also, I believe it is $4-5k per product, not for all products combined, no?

This is so, to get the UIAA Safety Label products are required first to be certified to the relevant European Norm whether or not they would ever be intended to be sold in Europe, according to the UIAA list there is no approved testing laboratory in the USA so it has to go to Europe not that that is a big factor financially.
The EN certification is valid for product families, so harnesses in the various sizes only get tested once, the safety label is the same.
This process has to be repeated every year.
The actual cost depends mainly on the certification test costs which vary according to the product. A bolt is probably around $1500 these days.

I took care of an 18 yo male in my Ed last night who bought a "climbing rope" off amazon to learn how to rappel.  His rope broke on its first use.  the amazon post said it was a climbing rope.  obviously not.

I was also talking to a few people at a crag the other day who work in high exposure equipment repair (dams, power lines, wind turbines), who have found several people offloading imitaion biners with fake CE ratings on them sold on amazon.

I know most ;'climbers are not going to fall for these fakeries, but the new and inexperienced?  

Not sure what my point is.  I see this forum is already a few years old.  

figured id try to revive the discussion in the community to see if there is or could be recourse.  seems to me amazon should be responsible (in part) for not verifying the safety and proper labelling of things they allow to be misrepresented that could result in injury,.

In the case of this kid, he fell close to 30 feet and is lucky to be alive

patto wrote: Regulation has its purpose. Nobody wants to go buy a product and have their house burn down because of faulty electronics. It is absolutely mind-boggling that anyone in this day and age would consider the federal government regulating climbing gear. Agreed. Climbing is different. Users are expected to be informed and intelligent enough to make their own decisions. Brand names is a marketing tool originally invented to signify QUALITY and they function very well in the climbing world. The stick approach of lawsuits works pretty well too. European regulation has brought some standards to the climbing world and this is a good thing. Though personally I don't see the current need to have them enforced. And of course the federal government here is exactly like the government in Europe. European at least is vaguely efficient in regulation because they do so much of it. (It still is a pain in the ass through.) The US, despite at least being just one country, seems to have more conflicting layers of government when it does regulate. More paperwork, complications and confusion. Despite all their regulation in Europe. Europe has stronger attitudes of personal responsibility than the US (UK, Australia too). Less of this BS about suing for uneven sidewalks, hot coffee etc...

About the hot coffee thing and the idea of BS lawsuits, this is off topic but I had to respond. The narrative that consumer safety lawsuits are frivolous is untrue and designed to protect the corporations involved from criticism. The lady who spilled hot coffee on her lap was ridiculed for just spilling some coffee and then selfishly grabbing money from McDonald's, when in reality, the coffee was boiling and seriously disfigured her genitals. Legally their coffee was not allowed to be that hot. If you notice it, the media almost always frames these sort of lawsuits as frivolous, when they really aren't. There is not an epidemic of consumers suing corporations for no reason. 

goingUp wrote:

I took care of an 18 yo male in my Ed last night who bought a "climbing rope" off amazon to learn how to rappel.  His rope broke on its first use.  the amazon post said it was a climbing rope.  obviously not.

I was also talking to a few people at a crag the other day who work in high exposure equipment repair (dams, power lines, wind turbines), who have found several people offloading imitaion biners with fake CE ratings on them sold on amazon.

I know most ;'climbers are not going to fall for these fakeries, but the new and inexperienced?  

Not sure what my point is.  I see this forum is already a few years old.  

figured id try to revive the discussion in the community to see if there is or could be recourse.  seems to me amazon should be responsible (in part) for not verifying the safety and proper labelling of things they allow to be misrepresented that could result in injury,.

In the case of this kid, he fell close to 30 feet and is lucky to be alive

Until the USA introduces a standards scheme for rock climbing equipment there is nothing Amazon or any one else can or should do.

If you see someone buying uncertified gear and going climbing/rappelling with it... let them do it.

Rafael Rossi wrote:

If you see someone buying uncertified gear and going climbing/rappelling with it... let them do it.

Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine.