stuck on crux - advice and opinion

neils wrote: As a second is it your responsibility to ask for that or is it even good form to do so?

It just depends on your partner. If it's someone you've never climbed with before, then yes, communicate as much as you need to before the climb so both of you are safe. Despite how much climbing mileage you may have with a partner, however, each climber is responsible for himself to some degree. Yes, it can be helpful for the stronger leader to place extra gear at crux, but more importantly, the follower needs to be prepared to ascend the rope, via prussiks or jumars, to get past the crux, particularly if you're dangling in space with nothing but air beneath you.

neils wrote: if a potential problem spot is discussed in advance or if, as a more experienced leader, should you place gear with this kind of situation in mind? Mindset being let me place a lot of gear to help him if he needs it or place it at critical spots if that is possible? It seems that a leader would ideally have that in mind if they know the second might have an issue.

If there has been an actual discussion about problems the second might have, than the leader ought to be thinking about how to mitigate those problems.

In all situations, it is the leader's job to make sure the second is properly protected. But the leader wouldn't normally be equipping a difficult section with extra gear for a possible aiding by the second unless there had been some discussion about possible problems. An exception might be for partners who know each other very well, so that the leader knows without discussion that there is likely to be a problem.

neils wrote: As a second if I have some beta on the route or know there might be a tough spot would you ever ask your leader..."Hey dude, can you try to place something there if you can so I can use it if I need to? I'm a little worried about that move."

It is absolutely appropriate, and you shouldn't hesitate to ask, understanding that in some cases the leader might not be able to do anything helpful.

@kowe @rgold (and others) thanks for your replies

i hope i am not belaboring this thread - I want to be clear that I have probably learned at least 12 things about various aspects of climbing, communication, procedure, skills I need to get better at etc from this and from this dialogue. So it is useful for me and I hope for others who might have similar questions. I am new but I hope it is clear I am trying to do things intelligently, correctly, and safely while still pushing my limits and challenging myself.

I spoke to my guide that I have gone out with and asked his opinion on this situation and what he does if he has a client that gets in to this spot, that I am sure has happened. I have to think that as a leader you are GOING to have a time when the second can't get up something. It's not if, its when. He said first and foremost when a situation could be like this, or you have a client or you think the person might not be able to follow...shorten the pitches and belay from a location where you can always communicate and hopefully even see each other. That should be a priority. When he took my up my first lead on Betty, which is of course much easier, we split it into 4 pitches so we could communicate, see each other, and it also gave me more practice. I realize that won't always be possible to do but if possible it seems like a good idea under these circumstances. We weren't going for any speed records, breaking it up a bit certainly would have helped if it was possible. this suggestion was given by @rgold in his first post as well as the #2 suggestion ;)

I totally agree about belaying in sight if at all possible, but remember that a guide's perspective is a little different: they have to assume the the client cannot manage by themselves and so have to be available to provide whatever assistance the client might need.

When you leave the care of a guide and set off on your own independent climbing, you become responsible for yourself. You have to be able to share concerns with the leader, but at the end of the day you need the technical skills to get yourself up something if it turns out you can't manage it free.

That said, leaders ought to be thinking about the total situation and not just where the guidebook put a dot for the next belay stance. It is supposed to be some kind of team effort after all, and it isn't to the leader's advantage to be stuck at the belay for hours because the second can't get up the crux.

JSH wrote: ... and/or the technical skills to secure yourself safely to the cliff, always. Reading between the lines of what he has said, I sincerely doubt that NeilS has those skills -- placing gear, evaluating it, assembling an anchor (which he had presumably just cleaned?) -- and I remain truly disturbed at the solution in this situation. To me, that was a much more severe problem than whether to prussik, aid or haul. Neil, you're at a stage where you don't know what you don't know -- and I don't think you fully understand how bad it was. Please, be discriminating in choosing your climbing partners. At the very least, you should absolutely be comfortable saying "so what's our plan if I can't get up this?".

very good points and I appreciate your honesty. We did not clearly communicate or establish a clear detailed plan prior if I could not get up the climb. Thinking about it, I think that protocol should always be established even if both climbers are experienced but not familiar with each other.

I definitely had the awareness the situation was far less than ideal. I don't recall exactly what I had with me...a #1 camalot, a few hexes, possibly another cam or stopper, and a cordelette. I was looking for a place to establish additional pieces and build a proper anchor so at the very least I'd be safely anchored but the ledge I was on, while large had limited opportunities I could see to place gear. But when I untied the rope for him to rap to me I was basically putting all my faith in him to get to me. If he couldn't, I'd need to be rescued even if I was anchored safely to the cliff.

I think one of my mistakes was not speaking up in advance. I may be pretty new to climbing but I am not new to outdoor pursuits. Solo hiking and backpacking, ADK winter hiking, I've taken WFA, surivial, gone out with guides on numerous occasions, mountaineering classes,off shore boating, read tons of books and have a decent amount of experience. I am not overstating my credentials but I am not a total noob to the general mindset of wilderness travel. In rock climbing I would say a lot of this is amplified or magnified...the stakes are simply higher.

That being said, I will say the leader I was with while a stronger more experienced climber than me, I think is not stronger than me in certain ways in the areas of safety protocol and common sense. I've been out with a guide and listened, read much, etc. After reading through this thread I actually did know what the right thing to do was. And I would say my lack of experience and our inability to communicate stopped me from acting on it. But I perhaps was not comfortable enough in advance to establish it because he was "the more experienced leader" Which is really on me. I was the one who had doubts about getting up the climb, I should have spoken up more. Perhaps a good leader would have done more on my behalf but I can't depend on that.

I should be discriminating in choosing a partner, I should speak up when my spidey sense goes off. Just because I haven't been climbing for 20 years doesn't mean I might not have more common sense than the leader in a given situation. He's not a bad guy by any means and was not purposefully negligent. I plan to take a self rescue/safety class soon - perhaps he should take one too ;)

neils wrote: very good points and I appreciate your honesty. We did not clearly communicate or establish a clear detailed plan prior if I could not get up the climb. Thinking about it, I think that protocol should always be established even if both climbers are experienced but not familiar with each other. I definitely had the awareness the situation was far less than ideal. I don't recall exactly what I had with me...a #1 camalot, a few hexes, possibly another cam or stopper, and a cordelette. I was looking for a place to establish additional pieces and build a proper anchor so at the very least I'd be safely anchored but the ledge I was on, while large had limited opportunities I could see to place gear. But when I untied the rope for him to rap to me I was basically putting all my faith in him to get to me. If he couldn't, I'd need to be rescued even if I was anchored safely to the cliff. I think one of my mistakes was not speaking up in advance. I may be pretty new to climbing but I am not new to outdoor pursuits. Solo hiking and backpacking, ADK winter hiking, I've taken WFA, surivial, gone out with guides on numerous occasions, mountaineering classes,off shore boating, read tons of books and have a decent amount of experience. I am not overstating my credentials but I am not a total noob to the general mindset of wilderness travel. In rock climbing I would say a lot of this is amplified or magnified...the stakes are simply higher. That being said, I will say the leader I was with while a stronger more experienced climber than me, I think is not stronger than me in certain ways in the areas of safety protocol and common sense. I've been out with a guide and listened, read much, etc. After reading through this thread I actually did know what the right thing to do was. And I would say my lack of experience and our inability to communicate stopped me from acting on it. But I perhaps was not comfortable enough in advance to establish it because he was "the more experienced leader" Which is really on me. I was the one who had doubts about getting up the climb, I should have spoken up more. Perhaps a good leader would have done more on my behalf but I can't depend on that. I should be discriminating in choosing a partner, I should speak up when my spidey sense goes off. Just because I haven't been climbing for 20 years doesn't mean I might not have more common sense than the leader in a given situation. He's not a bad guy by any means and was not purposefully negligent. I plan to take a self rescue/safety class soon - perhaps he should take one too ;)

You sound introspective and conscientous. I'd climb with you if you ever come to Central California.

FrankPS wrote: You sound introspective and conscientous. I'd climb with you if you ever come to Central California.

thank you for saying so.

JSH wrote: I remain truly disturbed at the solution in this situation. To me, that was a much more severe problem than whether to prussik, aid or haul. Neil, you're at a stage where you don't know what you don't know -- and I don't think you fully understand how bad it was. Please, be discriminating in choosing your climbing partners. At the very least, you should absolutely be comfortable saying "so what's our plan if I can't get up this?".

Julie is right about this. Having you set up your own anchor and then untie, especially under circumstances of poor communication and no ability to see each other, was just plain wrong.

You can't always tell who you should go out with, but you can tell who you shouldn't go out with again.

rgold wrote: Julie is right about this. Having you set up your own anchor and then untie, especially under circumstances of poor communication and no ability to see each other, was just plain wrong. You can't always tell who you should go out with, but you can tell who you shouldn't go out with again.

I wish this forum had a like or thank you button so I could acknowledge a post without saying anything :)

I have led hikes with less experienced people like such as Haystack Basin Saddleback in the ADK. About 19 miles, approx 5000-6000 ft of elevation gain. Plenty of decent scrambles and class 4 stuff. While I won't say it's the same as class V rock climbing the mentality is the same. I definitely feel responsible for my partner and consider it my job to get us back safely. Especially as the more experienced person who has been there before. So I do understand what you guys are saying. I keep thinking along the lines of...how would I have handled this if I was the leader and that was my wife that couldn't get up the climb. Granted - my wife would never be there in a million years, but that's beside the point :)

As far as choosing climbing partners I agree with you - you can't always tell who you should go out with. That occurred to me when I started climbing and meeting people. My first thought was like...I don't know you. How does this work? This could be really good...or REALLY REALLY bad. Granted the other person doesn't want to get hurt either so you both have a vested interest but some people are more cavalier then others or less conscientious or whatever. In case you can't tell, I am pretty analytical and anal. I prefer doing things by the book so to speak.

I am babbling and being redundant but so many lessons learned in this experience.

What I have done in the past when I knew that my second might not be able to climb a section I have led is to bring my mini-traxion and then redirect the rope through it to my belay device, which I attach to my harness. I then take my prussik and put it below the redirect and pull up as I weight the rope. You are not going to "haul" anyone with this setup, but I promise you will take in every inch they give you. Obviously, pulling someone through I roof has its issues as well, that this system might not help much. As a disclaimer, these have always been experienced climbers, just people that could not free the crux of a route. Additionally, you need to setup the belay as soon as safely possible after said crux.

Bill M wrote:What I have done in the past when I knew that my second might not be able to climb a section I have led is to bring my mini-traxion and then redirect the rope through it to my belay device, which I attach to my harness. I then take my prussik and put it below the redirect and pull up as I weight the rope.

I'm not totally sure I'm picturing this set-up. So let me ask - assume the second has fallen (off an overhang) and is hanging on the rope. They ask to be lowered. What do you do with that loaded mini-trax?

OP - don't wait for a course to start practicing with that Tibloc etc.

Gunkiemike wrote: I'm not totally sure I'm picturing this set-up. So let me ask - assume the second has fallen (off an overhang) and is hanging on the rope. They ask to be lowered. What do you do with that loaded mini-trax? OP - don't wait for a course to start practicing with that Tibloc etc.

In my post I did have disclaimer, "Obviously, pulling someone through a roof has its issues as well, that this system might not help much."

With that said, I have only done this twice. Once I did not release the trax, the second I did. In the second case I was able to clip the prussik to my waist loop, and as I stood up it only took a fraction of an inch to unload the trax and I was able to reach up and disengage the cam. I was then able to lower my partner down so he could make a 2nd attempt in a slightly different location. In the gym I can deadlift ~300 lbs and I weigh 160 lbs, so that is why I had not problem getting an extra 1/2 inch of slack out of the rope by pulling up on the prussik vs simply counter weighting the rope.

Depending on locations of pro you may pin the second into the roof if you try to haul them. As others have said that would be the absolute last resort.

If you don't have gear that would allow you french free it then just using one prusik on the rope with a sling for your foot and a biner on your belay loop will let you ascend the rope. Nothing fancy needed. Tie your short prusik (3rd hand) to the rope and girth a sling in it. Stand up/out with your other elbow around the rope. Tie a clove to a locker on your belay loop, sit back and un-weight the foot prusik, then bump it up. Repeat and take in the slack on your clove. I've done this to get out of an overhanging crevasse when I forgot to bring my second prusik.

It's already been said, but I refuse to let my partners untie in the middle of a multi-pitch, even when both/all of us are at one belay. A little while back I had a bit of a rope clusterfuck that my partner proposed solving by simply untying instead of painfully re-flaking the entire rope. She was on a very reliable separate tether, but I refused. Too much potential for error, very bad practice.

When the party is separated, that's an absolute, solid no. The single piece of gear placed by someone with no gear placement experience is a whole 'nother nooooooooo.

I've french freed entire pitches in Zion when extremely dehydrated and incapable of climbing properly. Doesn't take much most of the time. That #1 camalot is also passively rated, of course.

gavinsmith wrote:It's already been said, but I refuse to let my partners untie in the middle of a multi-pitch, even when both/all of us are at one belay. A little while back I had a bit of a rope clusterfuck that my partner proposed solving by simply untying instead of painfully re-flaking the entire rope. She was on a very reliable separate tether, but I refused. Too much potential for error, very bad practice.

I disagree. In fact I've done it surprisingly regularly. (Rope anchors with just me leading.)

There is only potential for error if you don't check and recheck your safety attachments at an anchor. Which is something I do regardless of rope, sling or whatever attachment I am using.

If you aren't doing your checks properly then sure untying and retying is going to increase your probability of an incident. But the big issue is with the former.

Regarding the topic at hand. I think others have addressed it appropriately. Leaders need to be aware of their followers abilities and not lead them into trouble. For NOOBs this might mean maintaining line of sight and good communication. For competent seconds this might just mean appropriate ascending skills.

patto wrote: I disagree. In fact I've done it surprisingly regularly. (Rope anchors with just me leading.) There is only potential for error if you don't check and recheck your safety attachments at an anchor. Which is something I do regardless of rope, sling or whatever attachment I am using. If you aren't doing your checks properly then sure untying and retying is going to increase your probability of an incident. But the big issue is with the former.

It's an unnecessary change in the system, in my opinion. If you get in the habit of doing it, you'll be more willing to do it when you're tired and should not be doing such things. I tend to like broad guidelines like that though, for the simple reason that they keep you from doing things that might cause problems when conditions are not optimal.

so let me circle back on this as I have learned quite a bit here and ask this this way - I might regret this but here goes:

The leader aside and how we handled it, was I "wrong" to even attempt this climb to begin with? I have followed 5.6 at the gunks. I had just climbed a 5.6-. I have climbed 5.7 and 5.7+ at Powerlinez. I can climb 5.8 and 5.9 at the gym and V1 with some overhangs. I don't think I was wrong to try - I think the prep, communication, and logistics associated with the scenario were lacking to say the least. I mean, I know I'm not the first guy that couldn't get up a climb free and clean. I should have just stuck the damn cam in the crack and pulled on it or clipped a sling and stood up, or whatever. It just didn't occur me to do it which was my lack of experience.

A few months ago I was climbing and I yarded on some gear and it was like a revelation - I was like oh crap - I can pull on this. I don't HAVE to do this free. It's ok, lightening won't strike me. I feel sort of foolish for not doing that now.

gavinsmith wrote: It's an unnecessary change in the system, in my opinion. If you get in the habit of doing it, you'll be more willing to do it when you're tired and should not be doing such things.

Why not? It doesn't matter how tired I am. I'm still doing my safety checks. If I can't ask and answer myself the question "how am I currently kept safe by my equipment" then I shouldn't be making any decisions on a cliff face.

And you suggest it is an unnecessary change in the system. Which system is this? I'm usually using the climbing rope as an anchor. Disassembling/reassembling the anchor is the alternative which is slower and also has 'risks'. Sure I could carry two cordelettes but again what happens when they are too short? Not to mention the additional time that they entail.

gavinsmith wrote:doing things that might cause problems when conditions are not optimal.

Whether conditions are optimal or not. I'm continuously asking and answering the question what is keeping me (my partner) safe. That is the process and the system that I use.

Simply ensuring I have a rope tied to my harness does not answer that question.

(I'm not attacking your choices here. I'm just defending mine and offering an alternative view to your attitude on what is unsafe.)

Neil's, it's awesome you tried that route! Keep 'pushing' yourself, especially now that you know how to get through hard bits. If you have the $$$ and want to make this scenario as simple as possible throw an ascended and a minitrax on your harness as a second on routes that might be hard for you & learn how to us them before you leave the ground

Rgold has some great advice, hope you keep exploring out there!

neils wrote: I wish this forum had a like or thank you button so I could acknowledge a post without saying anything :) I have led hikes with less experienced people like such as Haystack Basin Saddleback in the ADK. About 19 miles, approx 5000-6000 ft of elevation gain. Plenty of decent scrambles and class 4 stuff. While I won't say it's the same as class V rock climbing the mentality is the same. I definitely feel responsible for my partner and consider it my job to get us back safely. Especially as the more experienced person who has been there before. So I do understand what you guys are saying. I keep thinking along the lines of...how would I have handled this if I was the leader and that was my wife that couldn't get up the climb. Granted - my wife would never be there in a million years, but that's beside the point :) As far as choosing climbing partners I agree with you - you can't always tell who you should go out with. That occurred to me when I started climbing and meeting people. My first thought was like...I don't know you. How does this work? This could be really good...or REALLY REALLY bad. Granted the other person doesn't want to get hurt either so you both have a vested interest but some people are more cavalier then others or less conscientious or whatever. In case you can't tell, I am pretty analytical and anal. I prefer doing things by the book so to speak. I am babbling and being redundant but so many lessons learned in this experience.

If it did, RGold would definitely have a lot of them...one of the most knowledgable and patient people on here. The partners thing is definitely an issue, one where the stakes are much higher in climbing because you are literally putting your life in their hands. My experience has been totally positive with MP meetups, but there have been stories. My advice would be to find a core group of partners in your area that you know and trust and build up your skills with them. I wouldn't plan on doing any climbs with random meetups that you couldn't do yourself; i.e worst case scenario, you lead all the pitches. If you're planning on getting hauled up something, hire a guide.