Strength Standards - Do You Care?

There's a few voices in the coach / conditioning space that advocate for rough strength standards for athletes. For example, both Steve Bechtel's strength book and Mountain Athlete argue that a male athlete should be able to deadlift 1.5x bodyweight (presumably for 1-rep max). This is but one example - I've seen similar standards (or ratios) for other lift movements.

There are two potentially implicit assumptions made when advocating for such standards. One is that strength beyond such standards may not be as essential, e.g. that if you can do the standard, said coach wouldn't recommend any effort increasing your strength in that movement beyond. The second is that if an athlete falls short, then said coach would recommend some focus on improving strength in that movement / area at some point during a training cycle/season.

I fall pretty short of these generic standards in most respects - I'm skinny and look like a distance runner. I don't really believe that increasing my deadlift 1RM is gonna make me a stronger climber directly; but that perhaps an improvement in the strength dimension of my athleticism would be helpful.

I am curious of folks' perspectives on strength standards as an athletic goal to work towards in the context of being a primarily one-sport (climbing) athlete, as well as broader wellness (e.g. the value of well-rounded athleticism).

My thought is that lots of truly elite climbers have been interviewed about their training in the last twenty years, and it's fair to say that at least 90% pay no attention to "general athletic" strength standards.

Adam Ondra within the last two years has offered two long interviews about his training approach -- made no mention of general athletic strength standards.

Just look at him: Do you think he knows or cares how much he can bench-press? Would you guess that is capable (or cares to find out) if he can dead-lift 1.5 times his body weight?

Speaking for my own non-elite multi-sport self ...
I do lots of strength training, and I try to maintain minimum strengths -- but _only_ for motions that are important for at least one of my specific sports.

I surely never do anything resembling push-ups or bench-presses. The only "dead lift" stimulation I get is whatever it takes to get airline baggage to and from the places I'm visiting to climb.

Ken

Strength standards provide a benchmark to see if there are gross discrepancies that can be improved, many times they highlight deficiencies in mobility or stability and not necessarily a lack of strength. Work with a strength coach to get the most benefit when addressing movement deficiencies in your basic lifts.

For example the deadlift is considered one of the top five fundamental lifts to master as it develops the central nervous system to adapt to heavy loads and develops functional lower body through core movement (hip hinge, engaging the lats, etc.).

The translation to climbing is not direct, but the ability to challenge the central nervous system has benefits to hanging on to difficult holds. Regarding hip mobility in general it is a weak area for many climbers, just check to see if you have tight hamstrings or lower back pain.

Let me preface by saying that I have competition powerlifted, and am a USAPL certified powerlifting coach. I got criticized on a chattanooga climbers Facebook group once for saying that deadlifting will never be the weak link in a climber. Do I think strengthening that or other lifts are good for overall conditioning and health....Sure. But if your goal is only to climb harder, don't waste your energy or body's recovery efforts in doing it.

jaredj wrote:One is that strength beyond such standards may not be as essential

I doubt that...if weightlifting is your athletic pursuit, then obviously the more the better.

jaredj wrote:The second is that if an athlete falls short, then said coach would recommend some focus on improving strength in that movement / area at some point during a training cycle/season.

I imagine that's the implication, especially for any sports w/ complex movement patterns. But obviously upper body strength isn't very important for cycling.

jaredj wrote:I don't really believe that increasing my deadlift 1RM is gonna make me a stronger climber directly.

No, but performance climbing does benefit from having a strong posterior chain.

kenr wrote:Adam Ondra...

Adam Ondra is more of an exception than the rule, but he also credits TRX exercises for improving his climbing. Still, I think people underestimates how strong he really is. Yes, because of his slender build, many of the body weight exercises puts him at a disadvantage, but that's more of a deficiency in measuring his strength.

I think a more interesting question is, if you are found to fall short in one of those measures, is the exercise the measure is based on the best for your sport (i.e., is deadlift the best exercise for posterior chain strength relevant to climbing)?

reboot wrote: (i.e., is deadlift the best exercise for posterior chain strength relevant to climbing)?

I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on what is the best exercise for this. And Eric's too.

I'll admit I've been doing some one legged deadliest and I think it has helped my climbing related hip extension some.

@Ken- What works, or doesn't work, for Ondra's training may not have any relation to what works for me or you or Jared.

jaredj wrote:There's a few voices in the coach / conditioning space that advocate for rough strength standards for athletes. For example, both Steve Bechtel's strength book and Mountain Athlete argue that a male athlete should be able to deadlift 1.5x bodyweight (presumably for 1-rep max). This is but one example - I've seen similar standards (or ratios) for other lift movements. There are two potentially implicit assumptions made when advocating for such standards. One is that strength beyond such standards may not be as essential, e.g. that if you can do the standard, said coach wouldn't recommend any effort increasing your strength in that movement beyond.

Not true. Athlete/sport/position dependent. Also, standards themselves are sport dependent (and they apply to women as well, it's not all about the dudes, dude).

jaredj wrote:I don't really believe that increasing my deadlift 1RM is gonna make me a stronger climber directly; but that perhaps an improvement in the strength dimension of my athleticism would be helpful. I am curious of folks' perspectives on strength standards as an athletic goal to work towards in the context of being a primarily one-sport (climbing) athlete, as well as broader wellness (e.g. the value of well-rounded athleticism).

Dead lifts don't mimic a lot of sport movements directly. But there is benefit for many types of athletes in maintaining a certain foundation of strength, particularly in basic movements which utilize many muscles synergistically. Some of this promotes resistance to fatigue, some of this sharpens the nervous system's ability to make the body work more efficiently (like Rui mentioned), some of this simply helps to safeguard an athlete against injury over time.

A person's response to training is super individualistic. Aside from just genetic differences in VO2, muscle fiber type, etc. there are many genetic differences which code for muscle-building ability (some people have mutations which code for extra muscle), whether you were born with a predetermined and unalterable low or high baseline of fitness, whether you are able to respond to training at a low or high state (also does not change as far as I know), what your psychological drive is for certain types of physical output.... the tables are truly uneven between people. Will deadlifting (or xyz) help you? Might depend on what kind of genes you have and what kind of climbing you do.

I think it is important to note that Mountain Athlete has an emphasis on alpinism vs straight rock climbing. Deadlifting is more applicable to the demands of carrying a pack than climbing 5.15.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on what is the best exercise for this. And Eric's too. I'll admit I've been doing some one legged deadliest and I think it has helped my climbing related hip extension some.

I honestly don't know what the best posterior chain strengthening exercise would be for climbing. It is more that I think posterior chain strength will almost never be the weak link in sending a route. My training is in how to get someone to bench, squat and deadlift the most weight possible. I do like your idea of single leg deadlifts, and I think doing pistol squats have great carryover to climbing movement. My concern with deadlifting for performance climbing is that they tend to lead to muscle growth, and climbing is a strength weight ratio sport. just about all added weight below the shoulders is a detriment.

Eric Carlos wrote: I honestly don't know what the best posterior chain strengthening exercise would be for climbing. It is more that I think posterior chain strength will almost never be the weak link in sending a route. My training is in how to get someone to bench, squat and deadlift the most weight possible. I do like your idea of single leg deadlifts, and I think doing pistol squats have great carryover to climbing movement. My concern with deadlifting for performance climbing is that they tend to lead to muscle growth, and climbing is a strength weight ratio sport. just about all added weight below the shoulders is a detriment.

The single leg deadlift idea came from Kris Hampton's site. IIRC, he also suggested pistol squats, and I did these for a while, but my limited flexibility seemed to hold me back.
So I switched to step ups, but still tweaking that to be more climbing specific.

powercompanyclimbing.com/bl…

Eric Carlos wrote: My concern with deadlifting for performance climbing is that they tend to lead to muscle growth, and climbing is a strength weight ratio sport. just about all added weight below the shoulders is a detriment.

I do not share this concern about adding weight from deadlifting. Targeting a 1.5x body weight deadlift is not going to bulk up most persons.

Eric Carlos wrote: It is more that I think posterior chain strength will almost never be the weak link in sending a route...My concern with deadlifting for performance climbing is that they tend to lead to muscle growth, and climbing is a strength weight ratio sport. .

Posterior chain strength has definitely been a key barrier for me to send on more than one occasion. Deadlifting for a season made a high rock-over move trivial, which had originally been a complete shut-down for me. With your certifications, you should know that high weight/low rep lifting will not effectively produce hypertrophy and therefore weight gain. I added almost 100 lbs to my deadlift without gaining a pound. I do agree though that it eats into recovery, and I've since moved towards Pistol squats, as you've mentioned. All in all, as others have said, there are no rules of thumb on these topics. If you have a weakness in your climbing that is best corrected by traditional strength training, then find time to fit it in. If not, I don't see such baselines as being relevant. To Rui's point though, I think a lot of these baselines are established to ensure proper mobility across the entire body, something that continues to be a challenge for me.

evan h wrote: Posterior chain strength has definitely been a key barrier for me to send on more than one occasion. Deadlifting for a season made a high rock-over move trivial, which had originally been a complete shut-down for me. With your certifications, you should know that high weight/low rep lifting will not effectively produce hypertrophy and therefore weight gain. I added almost 100 lbs to my deadlift without gaining a pound. I do agree though that it eats into recovery, and I've since moved towards Pistol squats, as you've mentioned. All in all, as others have said, there are no rules of thumb on these topics. If you have a weakness in your climbing that is best corrected by traditional strength training, then find time to fit it in. If not, I don't see such baselines as being relevant. To Rui's point though, I think a lot of these baselines are established to ensure proper mobility across the entire body, something that continues to be a challenge for me.

That is why I said "almost" never the weakest link. I deadlift....I love to deadlift and I think it makes me a more well rounded athlete. Most people, however, with more limited training time, can usually be better served doing other things if climbing is truly their priority. Also, high weight/low rep will not effectively produce hypertrophy, but it will dig deeper into your recovery. A heavy deadlift will tax your CNS.

RangerJ wrote:Deadlifting is more applicable to the demands of carrying a pack than climbing 5.15.

Yes and carrying a heavy-ish pack is important for me.
And I train for it by ...
Carrying an extra-heavy pack (much heavier than in actual alpine climbing or approaching performance.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on what is the best exercise for this.

You know I'm a terrible person to ask; everything I know about strength exercise I got from experimenting on my wife :) But I do know some are helpful because the more we've addressed the deficiencies, the more she's been out-climbing me. So, I'll tell you in 6 months.

Speaking from someone who doesn't deadlift (or barbell squat), one thing I noticed is the motion of deadlift is harder in the start of the motion than the end, whereas in climbing, the posterior chain strength requirement is highest at the more straight (or even slightly arched back) body/leg position.

If you do any ring row pull ups, then I would recommend doing them with one leg on the ground (and maybe start the motion with the hip unhinged). Sure seems more specific for climbing.

Either way, in actual steep climbing, if your hip is mostly lined up with the wall (instead of turned inward), you are probably doing it wrong. I imagine there is a lot more groin muscle involvement than 2 legged deadlifting.

Regarding to muscle/weight gain. My philosophy is not all weight are the same: sure, less is (usually) better, but extra weight below your COG just means more weight you can apply to the foot holds. It'll still hold you back the same when you campus, but that's not really climbing.

reboot wrote: If you do any ring row pull ups, then I would recommend doing them with one leg on the ground (and maybe start the motion with the hip unhinged). Sure seems more specific for climbing.

I have been doing these using only one leg, and one (opposite) arm. I elevate my leg on the back extension machine at the BRC. So my body is more or less horizontal, but I am high enough that I can bring my torso into a position perpendicular to the ground before rotating back up
The setup for this at the Spot is even better, you can use a slanting molding on the back wall and it's a real struggle to keep your feet on while you do the row. I couldn't do it in tennis shoes, had to use climbing shoes.
I also use a small dumbell in my reaching hand to add resistance. Have considered a weight belt or vest, but haven't tried it.

I agree it seems pretty specific.

Ha! Been climbing for 59 years now. When younger, possibly stronger in some ways than most of the "standard-setters." (So by their lights I had "imbalances.") If I had to meet the standards they set, I'd never have gotten started, would never have progressed, and no doubt would have been in the gym yesterday trying to improve my deadlifts rather than, in reality, being out climbing. (Or maybe at home on the couch after a half-century of squat and deadlift-induced spinal compressions squished every disk...)

Could Tenzing Norgay deadlift 1.5 X bodyweight? Ueli Steck? Robbins? Bachar? Messner? Pratt? Barber? Honnold? Puccio? Caldwell? Davis? Croft? Ondra? Sharma? Huber? Hill? Shiraishi?

I know, I know, they all would have been (or would be) better if they could bend over and raise 250 pounds or so.

Rui Ferreira wrote:Strength standards provide a benchmark to see if there are gross discrepancies that can be improved, many times they highlight deficiencies in mobility or stability and not necessarily a lack of strength.

most climbers with poor shoulder and hip mobility would clearly improve their climbing performance if these were to be addressed.

and not everyone is Ueli Steck getting full body massage multiple days per week to fix problems.

In between these extremes there are some lessons to be taken.

It doesn't exactly take decades of training to deadlift 1.5x bodyweight.

It's a good whole body exercise with poor climbing specificity. It taxes your grip if you stick with double overhand. It works your core, posterior chain, and your CNS. If you go to the gym, and you like doing complex movements, you would not be wrong to consider it.

Is there much more to be said about deadlift?

Personally, focused training has unearthed & begun to address weaknesses I didn't know I had that was hurting my climbing and hiking. More climbing & hiking wouldn't have fixed it. Hip weakness, core weakness, shoulder weakness... I was deluding myself before when I thought I was in good shape. Also, as I'm not a professional climber, I'd rather have whole body fitness than absolute peak climbing form with chicken legs and gorilla arms.

rgold wrote:Hill?

Hill probably could don't you think? Isn't the story that John Long got her to compete in competitive weightlifting for a bit? And went for the world record benchpress. And then she climbed the Nose. So the takeaway is that you need to be able to bench if you want to climb the Nose.

rgold wrote: Could Tenzing Norgay deadlift 1.5 X bodyweight? Ueli Steck? Robbins? Bachar? Messner? Pratt? Barber? Honnold? Puccio? Caldwell? Davis? Croft? Ondra? Sharma? Huber? Hill? Shiraishi? I know, I know, they all would have been (or would be) better if they could bend over and raise 250 pounds or so.

I'll bet Alex Puccio could whip anybody on this site, including Burchey.

I regret not getting the chance to lose to her in arm wrestling.