Communication when you cannot hear your partner?

Daniel Evans wrote: It has nothing to do with how old school and bad ass you are. Why wouldn't you use technology when available to eliminate the need for threads like this in the first place?

Because technology will fail you at the worst time. Walkie talkies get dropped. Batteries die. Cell phone reception isn't reliable. The more shit you add into things the more shit will go wrong. KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid.

You better be prepared for those events and if you're always climbing using technology as a crutch you and your partner will NOT be dialed in that scenario.

Follow the rope movement, it's easy once you practice.

Using walkie talkies is simple? And my climbing partners and I use the rope tug system as a backup to our walkie talkies. I just said that a whistle sounds like a better alternative secondary means of communication in comparison to the rope tug method.

Daniel Evans wrote:Using walkie talkies is simple? And my climbing partners and I use the rope tug system as a backup to our walkie talkies. I just said that a whistle sounds like a better alternative secondary means of communication in comparison to the rope tug method.

If walkie-talkies work for you, use them. As long as you have a backup system for communication if the walkie-talkies fail, then you're fine.

Don't worry about what MP'ers think. You get to decide what works best for you.

Jim Turner wrote:The only problem is, what to do when the second needs to, for example, put her shoes on before climbing. If I pull the rope tight, she can't sit down to put on her shoes (a problem when at the bottom of the first pitch, or at comfortable belays with ledges).

Don't pull it so tight, and always be prepared to let a little slack out. Even when the follower is climbing. They may need to down climb, pull some slack to flip it over something, etc.

Jim Turner wrote: This also wastes time, since I have all the slack pulled and have her on belay and ready, but now I'm waiting for her to get ready. (Violates the idea of both climbers always doing something). So, I tried to change it up so that once I'm secure, but anchor not fully built, I signal to her to take me off belay by quickly pulling a few lengths of rope. This was mentioned above by another poster. Then, while she is getting ready, I'm building anchor and pulling rope. By the time I am done pulling rope, she is also ready to climb. This caused confusion the first time, since we hadnt fully walked through the process before hand. It was also weird because I have pulled up 20' of rope or so; do I let it drop ( confusing the climber), or clove hitch the amount I pulled so I don't have to re-pull it.

Don't pull up the rope until the anchor is built and your belay device is ready to be loaded with the rope. There's no need to drop the rope you just pulled up.

1. Put enough gear in to secure yourself and clip into it.
2. Signal that you're off belay.
3. Finish the anchor and ready your belay device.
4. Pull up the rest of the rope and load your belay device.
5. Signal that they're on belay.
6. Gently tug the rope periodically. If there's some slack, pull it in as gently & smoothly as you can to keep up with them, then let a little out so it's not pulling on them (unless they ask you for a tight belay).

Jim Turner wrote: There must be a more straightforward way to deal with this. I'm sure I'll figure it out after a few more climbs, but if anybody has thoughts or suggestions I'd like to hear. One person above mentioned to pull out all slack, then feed back a couple meters. Maybe this the reason for 2m of slack? And if doing this method, I would think the second would need to give some rope tugs to indicate to pull the remaining slack when ready to climb.

No, don't automatically feed back 2m... Just let the rope go a little so that it's not tight -- a few inches or so. If you feel tension from them trying to sit down or wander off to take a leak (or, of course, you hear them ask for slack), feed more rope out as needed.

They should have their shoes and everything else within reach anyway -- and most likely clipped to something nearby when at a belay -- and worst-case is they squat with rope tension while they shoe-up.

Healyje wrote: If you have significant rope drag .... But, in general, as in both these scenarios, don't create unnecessary problems for yourself that you then have to solve and possibly put yourself at risk while doing so.

Two things:
(1) It's a well-known issue that guides can and have developed elbow tendinitis from hauling clients up routes. I'm no guide, and I'm not saying you can't belay the whole rope up through an auto-blocking setup, but making the whole system efficient is the name of the game. This includes making it easier for you and easily pulling up extra rope when safe to do so. Yes, yes, sure, sure, you don't need to use a "guide-mode" device, but most people prefer to these days.

(2) You've stated lots of "should-of" statements. The whole fun of climbing is exploring a route for yourself: sometimes you mess up, the rope drag is higher than you thought, and your belay is in a shitty spot. It happens, and being prepared for this is better than being grumpy on the internet and stating that people shouldn't get into less-than-ideal situations. I also shouldn't fall on most of the climbs I do but I'm not free solo-ing anytime soon.

Daniel Evans wrote: It has nothing to do with how old school and bad ass you are. Why wouldn't you use technology when available to eliminate the need for threads like this in the first place?

Cause it's just more junk of marginal usefulness to carry up with me.

Daniel Evans wrote: It has nothing to do with how old school and bad ass you are. Why wouldn't you use technology when available to eliminate the need for threads like this in the first place?

Radios and cell phones will fail eventually (batteries will die, radios will get dropped or slammed in a fall, etc), and then one would again be in the position of "cannot hear their partner".

Technology like that doesn't eliminate the need for threads like this. It just moves the problem.

What will you do when the radios fail and you cannot hear your partner?

Kent Richards wrote: Radios and cell phones will fail eventually (batteries will die, radios will get dropped or slammed in a fall, etc), and then one would again be in the position of "cannot hear their partner". Technology like that doesn't eliminate the need for threads like this. It just moves the problem. What will you do when the radios fail and you cannot hear your partner?

I will use a tertiary means of communication like I mentioned above. Voice, walkie talkie, then whistle or rope tug as last resort. Why is this hard to grasp? I've used walkie talkies for over a year now and have yet to drop it or have one die. So if i have to use the rope tug once every year, two years, whatever it may be, then its worth it for me over consistently using the rope tug method because "technology fails." ive worked with radio equipment for the past 8 years, im well aware of the ins and outs of using it. Anyway this topic is beat to death. Im gonna move on with my life now. Safe climbing.

Daniel Evans wrote: I will use a tertiary means of communication like I mentioned above. Voice, walkie talkie, then whistle or rope tug as last resort. Why is this hard to grasp?

Ehh, it's not hard to grasp. It seems there was a miscommunication.

My point was that using technology such as walkie talkies doesn't eliminate the need for threads like this. Even with the technology, at some point one can find themselves in a situation where they cannot hear their partner, and the question of "What do I do now?" remains.

the thing about "going back to basics" when the walkie talkie dies or get dropped ... is that if you dont practice the basics youll be more likely to screw em up

its like folks who cant remember how to tie a munter (mule), carabiner brakes, and self rescue ... if you dont PRACTICE it youll be fumbling around

as to whistles ... just dont do it out here in squamish ... if you blow a whistle over and over, theres a good chance someone will call SAR

walkie talkies might be fine on some krazy helacious wind blown climbs ... but on your standard "trade" routes that hundreds of folks do just fine and safely every year???

skillz not gear ...

;)

Bill Kirby wrote:The good ol days

Yeah, when people who probably shouldn't climb (like those who feel they need whistles, walkie-talkies and iPhones), didn't...

Ancent wrote:Two things: (1) It's a well-known issue that guides can and have developed elbow tendinitis from hauling clients up routes. I'm no guide, and I'm not saying you can't belay the whole rope up through an auto-blocking setup, but making the whole system efficient is the name of the game. This includes making it easier for you and easily pulling up extra rope when safe to do so. Yes, yes, sure, sure, you don't need to use a "guide-mode" device, but most people prefer to these days.

Well, as before, you have yet another set of issues if you're stupid enough to ratchet people up rocks for money, but those issues don't really have much to do with climbing or belaying per se. Bottom line is if you can't belay 'efficiently' by whatever means of belaying you choose for the entirety of the climb you're either don't know what you're doing, have chosen the wrong belay method or you don't belong on the climb. It's not rocket science.

Ancent wrote:(2) You've stated lots of "should-of" statements. The whole fun of climbing is exploring a route for yourself: sometimes you mess up, the rope drag is higher than you thought, and your belay is in a shitty spot. It happens, and being prepared for this is better than being grumpy on the internet and stating that people shouldn't get into less-than-ideal situations. I also shouldn't fall on most of the climbs I do but I'm not free soloing anytime soon.

Preventing rope drag is basic to trad climbing and if you're encountering it with any frequency at all you should seriously reconsider what you're doing and how you're doing it. Ditto on bad belays (particularly with 60/70/80m ropes available today).

Healyje wrote: Yeah, when people who probably shouldn't climb (like those who feel they need whistles, walkie-talkies and iPhones), didn't... Well, as before, you have yet another set of issues if you're stupid enough to ratchet people up rocks for money, but those issues don't really have much to do with climbing or belaying per se. Bottom line is if you can't belay 'efficiently' by whatever means of belaying you choose for the entirety of the climb you're either don't know what you're doing, have chosen the wrong belay method or you don't belong on the climb. It's not rocket science. Preventing rope drag is basic to trad climbing and if you're encountering it with any frequency at all you should seriously reconsider what you're doing and how you're doing it. Ditto on bad belays (particularly with 60/70/80m ropes available today).

You're like the Uncle Rico of the climbing community.

Nobody cares that you used to hip belay and rope tug. Welcome to the 21st century.

Ah, the enlightened twenty-first century. The one in which if bolts evaporated overnight there would an 85-90% reduction in climbers in the morning. Got it and positively awe struck.

Healyje wrote:Ah, the enlightened twenty-first century. The one in which if bolts evaporated overnight there would an 85-90% reduction in climbers in the morning. Got it and positively awe struck.

Agreed on the statistics part, but I'm a trad climber :/

Well, good, hopefully one who learns to skip the fluff and crutches paying attention to what counts so you don't get hurt. Or, as bear said:

bearbreeder wrote:skillz not gear ...

Climbing gyms and sport climbs created a generation of climbers who can pull really, really hard moves. These climbs have minimal risk where you can fall safely multiple times until the moves are wired. As I said, this makes for climbers who are skilled at making moves.

However, the down side is this type of climbing requires only a minimal level of technical rope skills. Gyms only require a 5 minute video and a few minutes of checkout to get certified to belay. Same goes for getting certified to lead.

Consequently, climbers ability to climb far exceeds their technical rope skills - i.e. their climbing ability is at a 5.12 level but their technical rope abilities are only at a "5.2" level. Climbing multi-pitch trad climbs requires a high level of technical rope skills to climb safely and efficiently.

I'm not saying that gym and sport climbing are bad, just saying that they overdevelop one skill (climbing) over another (rope skills) - like weight lifters who over develop certain parts of their bodies and get their bodies totally out of balance. Developing good technical rope skills requires as much or probably more practice than being able to pull 5.12 - and is more important than being able to pull 5.12 because it is what keeps you safe.

Nick Drake wrote: Because technology will fail you at the worst time. Walkie talkies get dropped. Batteries die. Cell phone reception isn't reliable. The more shit you add into things the more shit will go wrong. KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. You better be prepared for those events and if you're always climbing using technology as a crutch you and your partner will NOT be dialed in that scenario. Follow the rope movement, it's easy once you practice.

Technology can be convenient, but skill and experience is better. All Healyje and bearbreeder are saying is that technology is not necessary. The batteries won't die and skill and experience are able to adapt to new situations - a dead battery can't.

theres isnt too much "skill" that will enable you to see things climbing on a moonless night ...

there is skill that will enable you to not DEPEND on walkie talkies on a multi ...

walkie talkies might have their place, but on trade routes hundreds of folks climb every year just fine without em ... perhaps one lacks the skill to climb multi without em?

;)

Healyje wrote:Ah, the enlightened twenty-first century. The one in which if bolts evaporated overnight there would an 85-90% reduction in climbers in the morning. Got it and positively awe struck.

Tell that to the weekend hordes at the Trapps :)

I don't see the problem with 2 way radios. Yea you can make it up without them but you can also make it up without a rope too. I've never used one myself but would do so if a beginner felt better with it. The way I see it climbing is suppose to be fun. If a radio makes the day more better than whatever..

Hey all,

Just to offer an alternative perspective (beginner's mind)... I am a new trad leader, and only started following trad outside with a guide, and then with friends 2 years ago.

Before I started climbing I expected this communication issue to be much more of a problem then it actually seems to be. It seems once you and your partner figure out the rhythm, and using all the information available to you, it is pretty easy to figure out when the leader is building the anchor and when they have you on belay. Relying on one piece of information alone seems to present the biggest problem (why is why walkie talkies as the sole form is probably an issue). I have appreciated the input from the experienced climbers on all the other information sources that might give a more complete picture.

-Brian

Brian Banta wrote:Relying on one piece of information alone seems to present the biggest problem (why is why walkie talkies as the sole form is probably an issue

The thing is Brian, NOBODY ever recommended walkie talkies as the ONLY means of communication. The same people on this thread are just failing to read what others are actually saying. If you actually read through the responses you would know that walkie talkies were mentioned as a secondary means of communication should audible commands fail. If the batteries die or the walkie talkie drops, then the rope tug is a tertiary means of communication. All of which is communicated before both climbers begin the first pitch.

I've been using walkie talkies on multipitch climbs for over a year now because I don't really have one dedicated climbing partner and I'm usually taking beginners out. That been said, I've never had the battery die nor have I dropped one on a climb. My point is, the likelihood of the battery dying or dropping is fairly low. So considering I have gone an entire year without issue using the walkie talkies (with the rope tug method as a tertiary backup; whistles were recommended as a replacement tertiary backup), the ease of communication and peace of mind is worth the extra weight and has made life much easier on myself and my seconds that followed.

For whatever reason, the use of technology and gear advancements seem to be a touchy subject with "old school" climbers because potato.