Passive Gear Only Trad Rack

This topic seems to be debated on MP over and over. It's interesting to watch, because there are some very strong opinions out there. The funny thing, to me at least, is that we love arguing the merits of one over the other, when they are made for different purposes. Chocks are meant to protect in restrictions, and cams are intended for parallel placements. Chances are, your climb is going to have some of each. Trying to shove a cam into a textbook nut placement is just as silly as praying that giant hex doesn't fall out of a perfect cam placement. While some climbers do rely heavily on cams, I would make the argument that cam placements actually require more practice to evaluate than chock placements. For a chock, check that it has good contact, fits the placement, resists an outward pull, and wont break the rock. For a cam you have to also consider walking, uneven cam movement, the extra forces involved in a fall, and the friction of the rock (wet/icy). So, tailor the rack to climb, bring any combination of nuts, hexes, screws, cams, pickets and prayers that will help you send. If you're worried about the weight, for most of us, cutting down on the weekly beer intake would make a bigger difference than trading cams for hexes.

smellygregman wrote:This topic seems to be debated on MP over and over. It's interesting to watch, because there are some very strong opinions out there. The funny thing, to me at least, is that we love arguing the merits of one over the other, when they are made for different purposes. Chocks are meant to protect in restrictions, and cams are intended for parallel placements. Chances are, your climb is going to have some of each. Trying to shove a cam into a textbook nut placement is just as silly as praying that giant hex doesn't fall out of a perfect cam placement. While some climbers do rely heavily on cams, I would make the argument that cam placements actually require more practice to evaluate than chock placements. For a chock, check that it has good contact, fits the placement, resists an outward pull, and wont break the rock. For a cam you have to also consider walking, uneven cam movement, the extra forces involved in a fall, and the friction of the rock (wet/icy). So, tailor the rack to climb, bring any combination of nuts, hexes, screws, cams, pickets and prayers that will help you send. If you're worried about the weight, for most of us, cutting down on the weekly beer intake would make a bigger difference than trading cams for hexes.

Well said. There is a piece of gear for any scenario. I aim to know the ins and outs for all situations and try not to limit myself to thinking one way or another.

I have to say I'd feel pretty stupid if I hurt myself falling above a bomb-bay slot or parallel crack just because I didn't want to use cams; just as I feel dumb having a cam walk out of a perfect nut constriction or running it out above a perfect Spectre slot because I was hanging my belay jacket from it down below.

So much of climbing safely is about making good decisions. Good equipment selection is an important part of that.

That said, save money and learn the joy of runouts by climbing exclusively on knotted slings and cord. (It's actually really fun, and can be bomber.)

Joe, buy or make some aid gear, couple of daisies and etriers. Aid on that stuff, top rope if you like and bounce test the s__t out of each piece. You can produce some significant kN bouncing on static material with body weight. You will learn more that way than just about anyway else. Instant feedback.

Gunkiemike wrote: ... To be honest, without making up some crazy "But what if you dropped all your cams off the route...what would you do then?" scenario, I'm having a tough time coming up with an argument for why being only semi-skilled with passive gear is a bad thing.

In the last few years, I've met quite a few climbers placing almost exclusively cams. I see two things happening:

1) Their eyes get "trained" in looking only for cam placements. So when their eyes can't find a cam placement, they run it out, even though there might be a perfect nut placement staring them right in their face.

2) In the area where I climb the most (Eldo, CO), cracks and gear placements tend to get thinner (smaller than your smallest cam) at 5.9 and up. Lots of beginners relying on mainly cams seem to plateau at 5.8, because they get silly scared on a well protected 5.9 that eats nuts of size #3 - #6 (BD). Even non-beginners that easily run up 5.11 in Indian Creek (where most routes take cams only) can scare themselves on G-rated 5.10 in Eldo that can be "top rope led" (your gear is always above you at any hard move) with a set of RPs (and knowing how to place them).

Yes, getting proficient and comfy with nut placements have a huge benefit. On the other hand, as many others have expressed, rarely are there any placements that takes only a hex or a tricam, but not a regular cam (at least in places I have climbed). Yes, there are occasionally such places too, but not enough of them to warrant hauling around tricams and hexes. And that's why we see most climbers still have a set of nuts (at least outside Indian Creek!), but not tricams and hexes.

It's a matter of preference. If we're being honest, cams make protection easier and you will climb harder things than otherwise. If I had to lead my hardest gear leads with just passive gear, I probably wouldn't have. Much respect to the hard folks of the past, like Mark Hudon leading The Phoenix on passive gear back in the day. I imagine that is a sight harder than slotting a cam, but probably not as ballsy as Honnold soloing the thing.

As far as tricams, I had almost the whole range. I've led using the largest one (tipsy indeed!) and I don't regret a day selling/giving them away.

Hexes. Meh. Maybe if I ice climbed or somesuch?

Make a compromise and rack multiple cams on a biner if it makes you feel more accomplished.

If I were going bare bones, I'd go with a single rack of cams and a couple sets of nuts. If you were good, you could probably stick with that for most everything. But sure, you can have fun just fiddling with your nuts.

I feel I have to weigh in on a couple of points.

First, while I have slowly amassed a good rack of cams, I do try to place passive pro first, then tri-cams, and then cams if nothing else works...in theory. In practice I carry a range of pro and place what looks like it will work best when I have a chance and need to place pro.

I love the DMM walnuts, and the BD standard nuts. Great sets and I have duplicates of several mid-range sizes.

I do have a full set of BD hexes, but I rarely use them. I usually have my second carry them and if I need one I will pull it up on the second rope.

The best tri-cams are the .5 and 1 (pink and red). I have led very few pitches where I did not place a .5 somewhere along the way. I have also placed a 5 (the smallest of the big pointy wobbly ones). It worked great, but I used it so seldom that I actually sold it for scrap metal.

I have a ball-nut, and I like it for thin cracks where even a Metolius 00 would not fit. I plan to get a few more, but they are more novelty items than anything else.

The best thing to do is place some at the base of a cliff, clip a runner and bounce on them to get the feel of good placements.

Enjoy.

Gunkiemike wrote: with folks carrying triple sets of cams as long as they can get the job done. To be honest, without making up some crazy "But what if you dropped all your cams off the route...what would you do then?" scenario, I'm having a tough time coming up with an argument for why being only semi-skilled with passive gear is a bad thing. To extend the analogy upthread, what's so bad these days about a person who can't do long division?

Leading on wet rock.

Leading an infrequently climbed route, or doing an on-sight FA, where you have to dig dirt/vegetation out of gear placements before placing gear.

Cams depend on friction to activate -- if you have anything that will reduce this friction, you're far better looking at something like a tri-cam, nut, or hex.

Gunkiemike wrote: I'm of the opinion that anyone who starts out with lots of cams is much, much less likely to ever get really competent placing passive gear.

That's probably true in general.

But it's not because cams are on the rack, it's because the users choose to use them more.

Anyone who does start with a full standard rack of cams + passive gear can choose to place the passive pro in order to practice.

I tell people to get a regular rack and make a point to learn the passive gear.

Sure, large hexes work fine in a lot of conditions and have their place, but if the person's going to get rid of them eventually anyway, why not start with and learn the gear that they're going to end up using (including nuts, tricams, small hexes)?

Kent Richards wrote: Sure, large hexes work fine in a lot of conditions and have their place, but if the person's going to get rid of them eventually anyway, why not start with and learn the gear that they're going to end up using (including nuts, tricams, small hexes)?

In lots of the T-wall hand cracks they fit the crack's geometry so well they work better than cams. Learning to climb multi-pitch trad in Chattanooga has left me with a love for hexes.