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Questions about rain jackets alpine vs. ?
coppolillo wrote:ah, i'd be curious to read that BPL piece on Gore Active...that is the lone and only time i've heard Gore referred to as more breathable than eVent or Neo.... got a link to the intro, at least? (indeed, that is old data. the BPL article is 2004--ancient, really. since Neo came out everything has changed...) heres the discussion on the 2011 test ... gore active shell, neoshell, event, etc .... hilariously enough they found that one of the more breathable fabrics was backcountry stoic vaporshell jacket at the fraction of the price of the "mainstream" fabrics |
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Another consideration is that you can achieve higher water pressures on the membrane when a wetted out face fabric experiences outside pressure (eg. shoulder straps on a pack pressuring parts of a jacket, kneeling down pressuring parts of pants, etc). You could possibly exceed 10.000mm of pressure from one of those occurrences. |
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cool, i'll look in the morn... |
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For a jacket that will ride in your pack 98% of the time, go with Outdoor Research Helium II or their newest version of the Helium. 100% waterproof. |
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welll since im on a roll breeding breathable bears ... i might as well breed a few DWR bears more for "educational purposes" (really to pad my own ginourmous intrawebz ego) =P    from demontfort university ...   Based on these methods long-chain PFCs demonstrated higher performance than all alternatives in all observational and durability tests performed. Plasma treated fabrics tested were C8-based and consistently demonstrated the best performance. This was expected due to the plasma application method allowing for better fibre coverage but, it should be noted that the samples sourced were treated by a vacuum method and atmospheric plasma treatments (more likely to be used for large scale textiles processing) may perform differently. It is also unclear whether the amounts of fluorochemical used in plasma treatments fall within the legislative restrictions being implemented; brands would need to investigate this further before deciding on this technology as a commercially viable replacement for standard C8 repellents. C6 repellents were found to be the next best in terms of repellency performance; overall repellency performance was largely comparable to C8 from new but C6 was less resistant to prolonged exposure to water. Similarly dendrimer based repellents exhibited little difference in terms of spray rating however, the weight increase measured was significantly higher than, not only long-chain PFCs but, all other repellent types. That said, these weight increase results were not consistent between samples of this repellent type and this could be due to any number of reasons including differences in processing conditions used or the specific fabric constructions. Other alternative repellent types all performed similarly; wax, silicone and polyurethane treated samples all achieved lower spray ratings than traditional long- chain PFC repellents (although most were still within the pass criteria specified by the industry: spray rating 80 (ISO 3)) as well demonstrating noticeably higher weight increases Polyurethane samples tested were the least resistant to prolonged exposure to water and all fell below the pass boundary (spray rating 80 (ISO 3)) required by the majority of outdoor brands. As previously discussed, all repellent types exhibited performance improvement after tumble drying for 30 minutes with all returning to within a similar range as the performance observed on each sample from new. In conclusion, based on the methods used and the repellents tested within this project, no alternative technologies were found to rival the performance level offered by long-chain PFC-based DWRs although all exhibited acceptable performance levels before durability testing. As implementing any alternative technologies would represent a drop in performance, outdoor brands will have to consider how they are going to justify this change to consumers, particularly as legislative measures and greater awareness of the issue are contributing to a reduction in availability of the traditionally favoured long-chain PFCs. summary ... modern DWR licks doggay ballz compared to the older stuff ... and breathability is based on DWR in the rain |
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yo bear, |
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one reason to want a high hydrostatic head is because the HH degrades with washings and usage generally ...  basically with enough washes and usage neoshell is no longer "waterproof", it becomes a softshell at that point ... |
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I'm surprised nobody has brought up pertex pile systems (the real softshell), I guess i shouldn't be surprised since it doesn't appear to have reached you muricans yet, but surely you guys must have heard of it by now, too much pataguci, south butts and Dead Birds! |
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As stated above, Neoshell (and Power Shield Pro) degrade with washing. Nevertheless, for what it's worth, Outdoor Research has a new membrane called Ascentshell that is made in a similar way (electrospun polyurethane), but they say it was designed specifically to address the durability issues Neoshell and PS Pro have. I have no idea if it'll work out, but their marketing has me really interested, and someone has to be the first to try it. Currently offered in the Realm jacket and soon in the Skyward jacket and pants. |
that guy named seb wrote:I'm surprised nobody has brought up pertex pile systems (the real softshell), I guess i shouldn't be surprised since it doesn't appear to have reached you muricans yet, but surely you guys must have heard of it by now, too much pataguci, south butts and Dead Birds! Pertex pile is heavy and not as adjustable. The good traits can be found with the joy of fishnets, not the right said fred kind. Brnje and aclima make long sleeve base layers in poly and wool. Cycling companies make gillets and Ts. |
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I'm kinda surprised that no one has brought up the new 2-layer technology that doesn't need DWR. Apparently Columbia's OutDry Extreme, as well as the new GoreTex Active With Permanent Beading Surface (that's a mouthful!) don't ever need DWR, because the membrane itself is durable enough to be on the outside of the jacket. It'll be interesting to see how durable those products turn out to be. I'm getting one of the Columbia jackets later this week so I'll let you know how well it works. |
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Nobody has really answered the original question, and has instead gone off the deep end on discussions in the opposite direction. Assuming you don't care a whit about breathability, is there a good, durable, and lightweight rain jacket that prioritizes water resistance? If I'm not looking for breathability I'm guessing I shouldn't have to pay the fat $$$ for a fancy NeoGoreVent membrane. |
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its MP we dont answer questions =P |
Nick Drake wrote: Pertex pile is heavy and not as adjustable. The good traits can be found with the joy of fishnets, not the right said fred kind. Brnje and aclima make long sleeve base layers in poly and wool. Cycling companies make gillets and Ts. Use that snug fitting as your base layer with a light windshirt over the top. The reduced amount of fabric contacting your skin reduces conductive heat loss dramatically, it allows vapor to quickly get off your skin, and keeps the cold windshirt from direct contact with your skin. In moderate rain even when the DWR on a windshirt fails while you are working the baselayer doesn't tend to wet out much. It's comfortable of a really wide range of outputs and weather. If it gets colder or your output is low it's easy to get a bump in warmth with a thin t (I like rab meco 120) or a grid fleece when it really drops. Please re read what you typed it's really not clear as to what your trying to say. |
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Lol, what a turn this thread has taken. I'm simply looking for a jacket that meets these criteria: |
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I'd go Rab Muztag or Rab Flashpoint in that case, then. |
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Take a look at the Camp Magic Jacket. Waterproof (not breathable), under 5 oz. stuffs into pocket. |
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Don't Frogg Toggs meet this description pretty well? I think they're supposed to be super light and waterproof, but fragile and not breathable. Another plus is a jacket is <$50 |
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I'm going with the RAB Flashpoint. It looks like it has all the criteria met that I wanted |
that guy named seb wrote: Please re read what you typed it's really not clear as to what your trying to say. What makes pertex and pile effectively comfortable over a wider range of temperatures, output, and moisture levels is that the high points of the pile make for less contact points against the skin. Your body heat pushes moisture away from these points, even when the outer pertex shell and insulation is wet. |
