Questions about rain jackets alpine vs. ?

coppolillo wrote:ah, i'd be curious to read that BPL piece on Gore Active...that is the lone and only time i've heard Gore referred to as more breathable than eVent or Neo.... got a link to the intro, at least? (indeed, that is old data. the BPL article is 2004--ancient, really. since Neo came out everything has changed...)

heres the discussion on the 2011 test ... gore active shell, neoshell, event, etc .... hilariously enough they found that one of the more breathable fabrics was backcountry stoic vaporshell jacket at the fraction of the price of the "mainstream" fabrics

backpackinglight.com/forums…

heres the introduction

backpackinglight.com/waterp…

the new gore pro is generally agreed to be much more "breathable" than the older (pre 2014) stuff ...

but at the end of the day without brand new or refreashed DWR no rain jacket is breathable in real rain ...

and all jackets eventually wear out so much that they wont take DWR ... or they leak ... or they delaminate

;)

Another consideration is that you can achieve higher water pressures on the membrane when a wetted out face fabric experiences outside pressure (eg. shoulder straps on a pack pressuring parts of a jacket, kneeling down pressuring parts of pants, etc). You could possibly exceed 10.000mm of pressure from one of those occurrences.

cool, i'll look in the morn...

indeed, the new DWR stuff is a step backwards..until they figure that one out, everything's headed the wrong direction. assume you saw the NYTimes piece on the DuPont PFOA's...not sure if that's the molecule they banned from the DWR's or what, but shit was toxic....

i'll check out the newer Gore stuff...but still not a fan of their gore-only biz practice....bummer.

those guys are right, the video/shop in montana---air permeability is where it's at for comfort in a shell.....love to wear a Neo and a Gore Pro side-by-side and compare......

anyway. this poor Jon dude is probably asleep at his laptop with dried tears on his cheeks at this point.......

night, dude!

For a jacket that will ride in your pack 98% of the time, go with Outdoor Research Helium II or their newest version of the Helium. 100% waterproof.

I have a Westcomb NeoShell jacket and can contest that NeoShell does breath better than Gore-Tex. However, no matter what the companies say, the breathability of any hardshell will never be to the extent that the garment keeps from collecting sweat and heat from within. Save your money & get a super light, packable and reasonably priced rain shell.

welll since im on a roll breeding breathable bears ... i might as well breed a few DWR bears more for "educational purposes" (really to pad my own ginourmous intrawebz ego) =P

from 2006 trail magazine, research done by the university of Leeds ... if anything else DWR has gotten WORSE since then with the banning of C8

from demontfort university ...

AN EVALUATION OF THE TEST METHODS USED FOR
ASSESSING DURABLE WATER REPELLENT FABRICS WITHIN THE
OUTDOOR INDUSTRY





Based on these methods long-chain PFCs demonstrated higher performance than all
alternatives in all observational and durability tests performed. Plasma treated fabrics
tested were C8-based and consistently demonstrated the best performance. This was
expected due to the plasma application method allowing for better fibre coverage
but, it should be noted that the samples sourced were treated by a vacuum method
and atmospheric plasma treatments (more likely to be used for large scale textiles
processing) may perform differently. It is also unclear whether the amounts of
fluorochemical used in plasma treatments fall within the legislative restrictions being
implemented; brands would need to investigate this further before deciding on this
technology as a commercially viable replacement for standard C8 repellents.

C6 repellents were found to be the next best in terms of repellency performance;
overall repellency performance was largely comparable to C8 from new but C6 was
less resistant to prolonged exposure to water. Similarly dendrimer based repellents
exhibited little difference in terms of spray rating however, the weight increase
measured was significantly higher than, not only long-chain PFCs but, all other
repellent types. That said, these weight increase results were not consistent between
samples of this repellent type and this could be due to any number of reasons
including differences in processing conditions used or the specific fabric
constructions.

Other alternative repellent types all performed similarly; wax, silicone and
polyurethane treated samples all achieved lower spray ratings than traditional long-
chain PFC repellents (although most were still within the pass criteria specified by the
industry: spray rating 80 (ISO 3)) as well demonstrating noticeably higher weight
increases

Polyurethane samples tested were the least resistant to prolonged exposure to water
and all fell below the pass boundary (spray rating 80 (ISO 3)) required by the majority
of outdoor brands.

As previously discussed, all repellent types exhibited performance improvement after
tumble drying for 30 minutes with all returning to within a similar range as the
performance observed on each sample from new.

In conclusion, based on the methods used and the repellents tested within this
project, no alternative technologies were found to rival the performance level offered
by long-chain PFC-based DWRs although all exhibited acceptable performance levels
before durability testing. As implementing any alternative technologies would
represent a drop in performance, outdoor brands will have to consider how they are
going to justify this change to consumers, particularly as legislative measures and
greater awareness of the issue are contributing to a reduction in availability of the
traditionally favoured long-chain PFCs.



summary ... modern DWR licks doggay ballz compared to the older stuff ... and breathability is based on DWR in the rain

use flurocarbon to reproof (not nikwax) and throw it in the dryer for on low ... kill a few kute polah beahs, but they died to keep u dry

;)

yo bear,

interesting on the new Gore stuff, just read some more (can you guess that i'm sick as a mofo and stuck at home?)....Gore won't say it's air permeable, which is weird to me because the vid you posted clearly shows it is.

BlisterReview wrote a pretty good piece on all WP/Bs ( blistergearreview.com/recom…) and he/they/she waxes a bit about why Gore might not claim its fabric is air permeable.

Damn, wish I could read the BPL article about it.

Anyway---thanks for the post and info. Didn't know Gore had upped their game with the Pro stuff. I'll have to check out one of their garments....

one reason to want a high hydrostatic head is because the HH degrades with washings and usage generally ...

from polartec

basically with enough washes and usage neoshell is no longer "waterproof", it becomes a softshell at that point ...

gore fabrics on the other hand are designed to be waterproof over its lifetime .... which is why gore offers that warranty on all their WPB gear that uses their fabric

on a side note ... HH is more important than folks think on single walled tents, tarps and groundsheets ... on a tent a 1200mm HH is considered the minimum for being walled "waterproof" ... however the moment you lie down or put a knee down on a tent floor, the pressure is MUCH higher ... which is why folks report getting damp on some tent floors especially as they age

over time and use HH will degrade ... in fact silnylon (used in most UL tents) HH can easily degrade by 1/3 + over the equivalent of a few months of constant use ... folks sometime end up with tents that mist through in rain when the HH falls below acceptable levels

fortunately the HH can be reproofed on silnylon fabrics

for jackets a MUCH higher HH is needed as theres constant pressure from the body on the fabrics ... especially around the shoulder straps ... and again the HH may well degrade with use

the other thing to note is that NOTHING is "air permeable" if theres a sheen of water on the fabric in constant rain ... ie DWR failure and the fabric wetting out

;)

I'm surprised nobody has brought up pertex pile systems (the real softshell), I guess i shouldn't be surprised since it doesn't appear to have reached you muricans yet, but surely you guys must have heard of it by now, too much pataguci, south butts and Dead Birds!

As stated above, Neoshell (and Power Shield Pro) degrade with washing. Nevertheless, for what it's worth, Outdoor Research has a new membrane called Ascentshell that is made in a similar way (electrospun polyurethane), but they say it was designed specifically to address the durability issues Neoshell and PS Pro have. I have no idea if it'll work out, but their marketing has me really interested, and someone has to be the first to try it. Currently offered in the Realm jacket and soon in the Skyward jacket and pants.

It isn't very durable, and the warranty is questionable, but the Marmot Essence is a pretty great minimalist jacket. Stretchy and really breathable. It has permanently open vents in the armpits that ensure that even if it's wetted out, there's still air exchange from the inside to the outside. The hood doesn't fit over a helmet, which is a dealbreaker for some, but I personally prefer the hood on my shell or any layer I'm going to wear for a while to go under my helmet. Tends to move better with less neck binding, and the bill protects my face better. Helmet also protects the top of the hood from rubbing on the rocks I always tend to plow into.

that guy named seb wrote:I'm surprised nobody has brought up pertex pile systems (the real softshell), I guess i shouldn't be surprised since it doesn't appear to have reached you muricans yet, but surely you guys must have heard of it by now, too much pataguci, south butts and Dead Birds!

Pertex pile is heavy and not as adjustable. The good traits can be found with the joy of fishnets, not the right said fred kind. Brnje and aclima make long sleeve base layers in poly and wool. Cycling companies make gillets and Ts.
Use that snug fitting as your base layer with a light windshirt over the top.

The reduced amount of fabric contacting your skin reduces conductive heat loss dramatically, it allows vapor to quickly get off your skin, and keeps the cold windshirt from direct contact with your skin. In moderate rain even when the DWR on a windshirt fails while you are working the baselayer doesn't tend to wet out much. It's comfortable of a really wide range of outputs and weather. If it gets colder or your output is low it's easy to get a bump in warmth with a thin t (I like rab meco 120) or a grid fleece when it really drops.

I'm kinda surprised that no one has brought up the new 2-layer technology that doesn't need DWR. Apparently Columbia's OutDry Extreme, as well as the new GoreTex Active With Permanent Beading Surface (that's a mouthful!) don't ever need DWR, because the membrane itself is durable enough to be on the outside of the jacket. It'll be interesting to see how durable those products turn out to be. I'm getting one of the Columbia jackets later this week so I'll let you know how well it works.

Nobody has really answered the original question, and has instead gone off the deep end on discussions in the opposite direction. Assuming you don't care a whit about breathability, is there a good, durable, and lightweight rain jacket that prioritizes water resistance? If I'm not looking for breathability I'm guessing I shouldn't have to pay the fat $$$ for a fancy NeoGoreVent membrane.

its MP we dont answer questions =P

durable
lightweight
cheap
breathable
waterproof

pick 2 or 3 of the above ... you arent getting all 5 or even 4 ...

especially when durable means abrasions from rock faces

i use an OR helium at 6 oz ... its not overly "durable", but has the best warranty in the business

every UL jacket compromises on durability, and some on real world "waterproofness" as real use ... period

;)

Nick Drake wrote: Pertex pile is heavy and not as adjustable. The good traits can be found with the joy of fishnets, not the right said fred kind. Brnje and aclima make long sleeve base layers in poly and wool. Cycling companies make gillets and Ts. Use that snug fitting as your base layer with a light windshirt over the top. The reduced amount of fabric contacting your skin reduces conductive heat loss dramatically, it allows vapor to quickly get off your skin, and keeps the cold windshirt from direct contact with your skin. In moderate rain even when the DWR on a windshirt fails while you are working the baselayer doesn't tend to wet out much. It's comfortable of a really wide range of outputs and weather. If it gets colder or your output is low it's easy to get a bump in warmth with a thin t (I like rab meco 120) or a grid fleece when it really drops.

Please re read what you typed it's really not clear as to what your trying to say.

Lol, what a turn this thread has taken. I'm simply looking for a jacket that meets these criteria:
#1 COMPLETLY waterproof
#2 Extremly lightweight
#3 Extremly packable
#4 Will not soak through as I'm being poured on while rappelling a route while escaping a storm.

I'd go Rab Muztag or Rab Flashpoint in that case, then.

I did some asking around and indeed, at least one major brand is bailing on NeoShell in 2016 due to durability/delam issues. Bummer! I loved the stuff...but oh well--eVent breathes almost as well and reports better waterproofing numbers.

Flashpoint is 6 oz; Muztag is 9oz.

Good luck, man!

Take a look at the Camp Magic Jacket. Waterproof (not breathable), under 5 oz. stuffs into pocket.

Don't Frogg Toggs meet this description pretty well? I think they're supposed to be super light and waterproof, but fragile and not breathable. Another plus is a jacket is <$50

I'm going with the RAB Flashpoint. It looks like it has all the criteria met that I wanted

that guy named seb wrote: Please re read what you typed it's really not clear as to what your trying to say.

What makes pertex and pile effectively comfortable over a wider range of temperatures, output, and moisture levels is that the high points of the pile make for less contact points against the skin. Your body heat pushes moisture away from these points, even when the outer pertex shell and insulation is wet.

A tight fitting fishnet base layer with a windshirt gives a very similar effect by minimizing fabric contact to the skin. You can adjust for colder temps/lower outputs with a thin form fitting T or grid fleece between the fishnet and windshirt. In the end the function is nearly identical to pertex and pile, but it's a tad more adjustable, lighter in weight, and can be easier to dry in the field.