Trad question

Belaying a short trad lead recently, my belay stance was on top of a basalt column, right up against the cliff, but just off to one side, with the climber going up the dihedral. Climber put in 5 or 6 pieces, clipped with sport draws. The rope line looked good when he was going up, with just a bit of slack, but as soon as it was tensioned to lower, every single draw was sticking straight out horizontally along the wall, because of my location. Nothing popped, but they were all being pulled sideways pretty hard.

Here's the question: I get that the rope needs to make a reasonably straight line, bottom to top, and the belayer needs to be fairly tight to the wall, but am I correct that I made a mistake when i did not consider myself as the bottom point of that line? If the bottom pieces were extended enough to mitigate that, is that a bad idea? Too much extra fall distance close to the ground?

I am prepared to anchor myself if I have to, and we could then have added a low piece, opposed, but is that the best answer?

Deciding where and how to set up the belay is my responsibility, as far as I'm concerned; if I don't like the set up, you won't get a belay, or at least without making a good case for what you have in mind. This one, we both missed, even if it's a "duh" in hindsight!

Thanks!

How much to extend the pieces is primarily the leader's decision. But, as you noticed, multiple pieces can pop out that way ("zipper," which can occur top to bottom or bottom to top). If you're concerned about it from the start, mention it to your leader before he leaves the ground.

Edit: Did you discuss it with your leader afterward and what did he/she say?

Sometimes that will just happen because of the nature of the route. You could put in a piece down low to prevent that but that will increase rope drag for the leader. Replace sport draws with alpine draws and extend them reduce tension on pro and prevent rope drag. Sport draws IMO have a very limited use in trad climbing.

FrankPS wrote:How much to extend the pieces is primarily the leader's decision. But, as you noticed, multiple pieces can pop out that way ("zipper," which can occur top to bottom or bottom to top). If you're concerned about it from the start, mention it to your leader before he leaves the ground.

After seeing this in action, it was clear it needs to be considered before the climber leaves the ground. Thanks, Frank!

As long as the first piece is solid and multi directional, it's not really a big deal to be off to the side a bit. If the first piece is a nut, belayer position is of far greater importance than if it's a cam in a splitter.

You do want to be aware of your position as a belayer, but the leader should make sure the first piece (or combination of pieces such as opposing nuts) is multidirectional so the pro doesn't get zippered out from the bottom.

Old lady H wrote: After seeing this in action, it was clear it needs to be considered before the climber leaves the ground. Thanks, Frank!

Frank, just saw your edit. Actually, he said take, I tensioned, he asked for lower. When that didn't happen instantly, because I was moving as far as I could to mitigate it, he said lower again, I said, look at your draws! Climber: "Oops." :-)

When I lead.... I usually tell the rope holder where to be at the start of the climb.... after one gets up a bit it dose not matter as much. On short gear climbs.... the first few pieces are very critical.

Old lady H wrote: Frank, just saw your edit. Actually, he said take, I tensioned, he asked for lower. When that didn't happen instantly, because I was moving as far as I could to mitigate it, he said lower again, I said, look at your draws! Climber: "Oops." :-)

I am having a hard time envisioning the scenario on how the draws are ALL being pulled horizontally out. I can see that if you are standing too far out from the wall that the lower piece may get pulled on.
Did the route trend right or left or was it overhanging? If so than yes, the draws would be pulled in an outward direction due to climber weight. The best action would be to use alpine draws. In my opinion sport draws are fine for dead straight vertical dessert splitters but most routes wander enough that a good floppy runner is a better option to reduce rope drag especially on easier routs that tend to have more ledges and features that interfere with the rope path.
I am glad you are being cautious however if the leader had topped and had a solid anchor constructed, the pro in the rock below is now obsolete. The route is established and now can be cleaned, which means that the pro being pulled does not really matter except that it may cause a piece to become lodged and hard to remove.

How long were their draws? If my belayer can't be close to a direct line to my first piece I'll try to put in a cam that will hold an outward pull, if if seems like it won't walk I'll put on a short draw, say 12cm. Above that I'll use either longer QDs or alpine draws. That way I don't have to worry about outward force on the other pieces when the rope goes taught.

Although I've also taken a lead fall on a very wandery route where outward loads were put on every piece. Nothing popped......

Old Lady H, what route were you on? I'm familiar with pretty much all of the moderate trad leads at the Black Cliffs, and it sounds like that's where you were at.

I would have either put in a piece for upward pull before my first protection piece (ideally I would put this piece in from the anchor stance or an alpine draw on the first piece.

If you're worried about the fall length of an alpine draw for your first piece you can initially use a short draw and then lower/downclimb back to it to extend after getting another good piece above.

It's fairly standard for pieces to get an outward load under tension, but it's a problem is this tension causes the piece to start shifting around.

Jeff J wrote: I am having a hard time envisioning the scenario on how the draws are ALL being pulled horizontally out. I can see that if you are standing too far out from the wall that the lower piece may get pulled on. Did the route trend right or left or was it overhanging? If so than yes, the draws would be pulled in an outward direction due to climber weight. The best action would be to use alpine draws. In my opinion sport draws are fine for dead straight vertical dessert splitters but most routes wander enough that a good floppy runner is a better option to reduce rope drag especially on easier routs that tend to have more ledges and features that interfere with the rope path. I am glad you are being cautious however if the leader had topped and had a solid anchor constructed, the pro in the rock below is now obsolete. The route is established and now can be cleaned, which means that the pro being pulled does not really matter except that it may cause a piece to become lodged and hard to remove.

Trevor, car body canyon, but as you would know, a lot of routes start on top of a column.

So, Jeff, for columnar basalt, picture corrugated rock, with me standing on a 4-5 foot high by about 4' wide perch, tucked into a corrugation. Almost a bit farther into the rock than the climber. I have to think about him, but also what happens to myself if he falls. Oh, and our cliffs are vertical, pretty much. Slabs are still just theoretical for me, mostly!

So, he was climbing a pretty straight up route, starting with a crack, and placing mostly cams and some stoppers, and just using his sport draws. Yes, once he was in the anchor, the pro was obsolete, but would still have had consequences for his "rope holder" if it had popped. And, perhaps if he had fallen and it zippered. Yes, I'm just the belayer, but I'm the one who could get neatly fileted belaying my leaders. Fortunately, I think it's super fun! Belaying, not the being fileted. :-)

There are a few points here.

1. We had a tragic fall in the Gunks when a rope off to the side of a vertical crack zippered every single piece the leader placed, resulting in a ground fall from pretty far up. It is easy to place a bombproof directional piece, but the leader didn't do it and the belayer didn't notice. The leader died.

2. If the belayer is above the ground and there is any conceivable scenario in which they could be pulled off their stance, then they have to be anchored.

3. It is the leader's job to arrange the protection correctly. As others have said, that can mean getting in a first piece that will withstand and upward as well as a downward load (and so also sideways loads). If the leader cannot get in such a piece, then it becomes a lot more important for the belayer to be directly in the line of ascent and not off to the side or away from the wall. If the belayer is anchored, they can't move, and then the leader needs to get things right.

4. It is perfectly appropriate for the belayer to ask the leader if that first piece is multidirectional. If everything blows and the ground is far enough away that the leader doesn't hit it, then the belayer is going to take a hit the likes of which they have never come close to experiencing before, unless they have actually practiced this sort of thing, which people stopped doing long ago. The belayer had better be wearing gloves, and even so the chances of maintaining control are not great with an ATC, which will be in the wrong orientation for braking if the fall becomes a factor 2. Moreover, if the belay anchors aren't really bombproof, the belayer may end up following the leader down.

5. Although it is the leader's job to arrange protection, the belayer may be better situated to notice zippering potential. What they should do is imagine a straight line from their belay to the leader---this is the path the rope will try to achieve in a fall. The further this straight is from the actual rope path, the greater the chance of zippering some of the pieces

6. Many people claim that a cam as a first piece is multidirectional because it will pivot upwards in the crack but still hold. I think this is Russian Roulette---once a cam starts moving, no one knows how well it will hold. In basalt, which is sometimes slick enough for cams to pull out even when apparently well-placed, the chances that a moving cam will stay put strike me as bad. So that multidirectional anchor has to be constructed with a pair of opposing pieces in my humble opinion.

Honestly, I don't see people doing this very much. If the crack is uniform, they'll have to place two cams of the same size and that might use up all they have for that size. Sometimes there is another option if you look around: a nut keyholed in a horizontal crack, or a sling threaded through a constriction. If the first piece can't be made multidirectional, then maybe the second or third can be.

7. All the draws will pull to the side if the belayer is to the side of the crack and the leader moves to the same side at the top of the crack, so one should also strive for a multidirectional piece at the top of the crack at the point where the leader traverses or diagonals off to the side.

Sadly, there isn't always a perfect solution. Sometimes the party has to take the risk that the leader isn't going to fall, or that if they do something will hold.

awesome input rgold. that list is a great reminder for all climbers new and old

rgold wrote:There are a few points here. 1. We had a tragic fall in the Gunks when a rope off to the side of a vertical crack zippered every single piece the leader placed, resulting in a ground fall from pretty far up. It is easy to place a bombproof directional piece, but the leader didn't do it and the belayer didn't notice. The leader died. 2. If the belayer is above the ground and there is any conceivable scenario in which they could be pulled off their stance, then they have to be anchored. 3. It is the leader's job to arrange the protection correctly. As others have said, that can mean getting in a first piece that will withstand and upward as well as a downward load (and so also sideways loads). If the leader cannot get in such a piece, then it becomes a lot more important for the belayer to be directly in the line of ascent and not off to the side or away from the wall. If the belayer is anchored, they can't move, and then the leader needs to get things right. 4. It is perfectly appropriate for the belayer to ask the leader if that first piece is multidirectional. If everything blows and the ground is far enough away that the leader doesn't hit it, then the belayer is going to take a hit the likes of which they have never come close to experiencing before, unless they have actually practiced this sort of thing, which people stopped doing long ago. The belayer had better be wearing gloves, and even so the chances of maintaining control are not great with an ATC, which will be in the wrong orientation for braking if the fall becomes a factor 2. Moreover, if the belay anchors aren't really bombproof, the belayer may end up following the leader down. 5. Although it is the leader's job to arrange protection, the belayer may be better situated to notice zippering potential. What they should do is imagine a straight line from their belay to the leader---this is the path the rope will try to achieve in a fall. The further this straight is from the actual rope path, the greater the chance of zippering some of the pieces 6. Many people claim that a cam as a first piece is multidirectional because it will pivot upwards in the crack but still hold. I think this is Russian Roulette---once a cam starts moving, no one knows how well it will hold. In basalt, which is sometimes slick enough for cams to pull out even when apparently well-placed, the chances that a moving cam will stay put strike me as bad. So that multidirectional anchor has to be constructed with a pair of opposing pieces in my humble opinion. Honestly, I don't see people do this very much. If the crack is uniform, they'll have to place two cams of the same size and that might use up all they have for that size. Sometimes there is another option if you look around: a nut keyholed in a horizontal crack, or a sling threaded through a constriction. If the first piece can't be made multidirectional, then maybe the second or third can be. 7. All the draws will pull to the side if the belayer is to the side of the crack and the leader moves to the same side at the top of the crack, so one should also strive for a multidirectional piece at the top of the crack at the point where the leader traverses or diagonals off to the side. Sadly, there isn't always a perfect solution. Sometimes the party has to take the risk that the leader isn't going to fall, or that if they do something will hold.

that was beautiful.

can I be your friend?

Thanks!

Follow-up question: assuming the first piece is multidirectional, how far away from it is too far for the belay (and you have to put some additional work into it)? My feeling is that 45° angle on the rope is too far, around 60° probably okay, less when I can get it. Seem reasonable? And, extending the clip out, if you can't get that?

Sideways isn't any different than out from cliff, so that was my stoopid.

I'd also love to hear more about basalt, as that's where most of my flailing takes place!

This really applies to a longer lead climb, but another option to consider on a climb that may have the rope trying to follow a traverse after a vertical path, and I believe to be a safer method when in doubt could be to have the leader build an anchor and bring the second up.

This is not to say you are doing it wrong, and the route may not call for it, but it is another option to consider.

Some good responses here so far.
The leader needs to assess how far to extend each piece, and that is why very few trad climbers use quick draws (or at least, not exclusively quick draws), which seriously limit your options. You're correct that how far to extend a piece affects both the rope path and fall distance potential, and sometimes this means clipping short to protect a tricky move above a ledge, and then down climbing back to that piece to extend it later after a higher piece has been placed.

Yes, it's a good idea to make sure your first piece or at least an early piece is multidirectional. It is a good idea for the belayer to stay in line with the protection, but it is also a good idea for the belayer to be standing somewhere they will be safe from falling objects (including their own leader) and sometimes that means standing off to the side a bit. If the belayer is not on the ground it's a good idea for them to be anchored, otherwise if the climber falls before placing any gear (or any good gear) they could pull the belayer off and you're both heading for the deck. If you can't anchor your belayer for some reason, it is even more vital for the leader to get a solid piece of gear as soon as possible, then another and another.

The leader is in charge of a lot of decisions, but ultimately you are partners, when you tie in you are in this together - so you BOTH need to assess the situation, identify risks, decide what risks you are and aren't comfortable with, and how to mitigate them.

Old lady H wrote:Thanks! Follow-up question: assuming the first piece is multidirectional, how far away from it is too far for the belay (and you have to put some additional work into it)? My feeling is that 45° angle on the rope is too far, around 60° probably okay, less when I can get it. Seem reasonable? And, extending the clip out, if you can't get that? Sideways isn't any different than out from cliff, so that was my stoopid. I'd also love to hear more about basalt, as that's where most of my flailing takes place!

There's no specific angle as an answer, as there are too many variables:

How high is the first piece?

How close to the climb can the belayer reasonably stand?

How much is the first piece extended?

And more...

BigFeet wrote:Another option to consider on a climb that may have the rope trying to follow a traverse after a vertical path, and I believe to be a safer method when in doubt, could be to have the leader build an anchor and bring the second up. It may be slow at times, but takes less gear, has less potential for pro movement/pivot, keeps you in a known direction of pull, etc... Yeah, yeah... everyone wants to be a rope stretcher, until you are dwelling on the accident you or a friend experienced. This is not to say you are doing it wrong because I do it to, and the route may not call for it, but it is another option to consider.

Single pitch, so flip the above upside down. Just standing off to the side.

But yeah, I'd sure think hard about traverse at the top, or any serious pendulum possibility. Cratering, for me, is something we aim to prevent, then hope a catastrophic failure doesn't happen, but ya know, that's the dice roll for getting out of bed in the morning, so what? Pendulum swings, run-outs, maybe just getting to the first clip, are the sorts of stuff where the possible bad outcome is just sitting there grinning at you with one arched eyebrow.