How do YOU ensure your belayer is competent?

ErikaNW wrote: Cool story bro. I have a couple of issues with it. First - how does being a physician in anyway correlate to one's belaying ability? Last I checked they do not teach belaying 101 in medical school. Second - you made the assumption she knew what she was doing based on the 'I've been climbing 10 years on and off' - that could mean really different things to different people. Third - if you observed this behavior (which it sounds like you did) as it was happening, why on earth did you not correct her or intervene in some way? A simple - 'hey, watch your climber' might have helped. Fourth - I'm just curious if it had been a male belayer who f'ed up if you might have related this story any differently, the use of derogatory terms such as 'chick' and 'bitch' certainly don't reflect well on you. Hope your friend is ok.

I apologize for sounding like a dick. I'm not. Climbing is my passion and I've almost died doing it by my own doing. So when people fuck up doing something basic & important, it hits home & I can get pretty heated about it. When it comes to belaying, I take it very seriously and expect others to do the same :)

First: By her telling me she's a doctor, I perceived that as someone who is very knowledgeable about risks when someones life/safety is at stake and having someones life at the other end of the rope is something not to be taken lightly. i.e. an observant person.

Second: Based on doctor conversation for her job, I took "off and on for 10 years" to coincide with the above answer.

Third: I did! Twice! She had none of it. That's when red flag went up and I spoke up.

Fourth: Had it been a male, it would've been the same, if not worse.

Climb on!

reddit.com/r/climbing/comme…

Toad wrote:So how do YOU assess/ensure the competency of your belayer when climbing with them the first time? You cannot always watch them belay someone else first, nor can you watch their brake hand when you're on the wall.

Actually, you can. And if for some reason you can't, another option is not to climb with them.

Toad wrote:...Yet it can be a somewhat sensitive issue, as people are naturally expected to be defensive of their egos ... Nobody wants to be offended, ... But many, many climbers are still in that area, where one's ego supercedes their experience. Surprise surprise: They're not always super receptive ... How do you break-through the ego barrier...

1. You acknowledge that human lives are more important than anyone's fragile ego.
2. If you approach a potential partner about your safety concerns, and they are defensive, unreceptive, or offended - that is a huge red flag. Thank them for making your assessment of them such a no-brainer, and move on.
3. Decide for yourself that not climbing on any given day is a better option than climbing with a (potentially) unsafe partner. Be prepared to pack up your gear and go home.

If I'm climbing with someone new, usually they are a climbing partner of one of my very trusted partners who has already vetted them. Or, they are a new climber themselves and then I shift into teaching/mentoring mode, stick to very easy terrain and low-commitment situations, and I don't trust them as fully as I do my regular partners. If it's a friend-of-a-friend cragging situation, I will watch the new-to-me person belay our mutual friend first, before I decide to put their life in my hands. I've had strangers offer me a belay in a group setting, and if I haven't seen their belaying yet or don't like what I saw, I'll say "thank you for the offer, but I'd prefer if *** belayed me." I've also said "thanks for the offer, since we haven't climbed together before, do you mind showing me your belay technique?"

If someone doesn't value your safety enough to accept this, or scoffs at your valuing your own safety, is that really someone in whose hands you want to place your life?

ETA: It should go without saying, but you yourself should be very willing and gracious to be on the receiving end of these type of queries as well. Remember, they're putting their life in your hands too - maybe even start out by offering to set their mind at ease, then it will be easier to ask them to do the same.

m.reddit.com/r/climbing/com…

https://m.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/3oeldb/dropped_by_my_partner_can_i_still_trust_him/

I was dropped by my climbing partner when I fell about 7m up a trad climb. My top piece popped out, he freaked and let go of the rope entirely. I decked (meeting no resistance whatsoever on my way down), shattered my ankle, have now spent most of this year either having surgery or in bed crippled with pain. We have climbed a little since, but only indoors on toprope. My question is: do you think I can trust him to belay me on lead now? Neither of us have very much experience (at the time of the accident we had been climbing about 3 x per week for 4 months or so). I'm not sure whether it was a random, one-off error that anyone could make or whether it exposes some inherent flaw in his ability to respond to an unexpected event. What do you all think?

Edited to add: I don't think that the accident was entirely his fault. Obviously the poor placement was my fault, and I understand that I need to work on my placements. However, I had what I thought was a good cam placement around my foot level, and a (much, much) more experienced climber who was present later said that my partner should not have let go of the rope.

Also from the same thread ...

I was dropped my my partner, and good friend, on April 29th, 2015. I fell ~17' (5.2m) without interruption prior to landing in a seated position on hard packed dirt. I experienced immediate lower back pain which subsided within only a few minutes. Aside from scrapes and bruises, I was alright. I sat in a buddies chair and had a beer or two and then ran some laps on the crag's "warmup" feeling okay (I'm aware this is probably not the proper thing to do after a substantial groundfall). The next day I felt like I'd been hit by a truck. Completely wrecked. Anyways, I ended up with micro-fractures in three vertebrae and was told to ignore them and they'd heal on their own in about three months. I have some back pain but it's hard to distinguish grounfall back pain from working at a grocery store back pain.

The route I fell from was a traversing route, climbing from right to left with long fixed chain draws (heavy). My final conclusion is that he had too much slack out (originally we thought he was holding the GriGri wrong). It's very hard to say how I exactly feel about my belayer/dropper. I've gone on climbing trips with him since, many days spent at other crags since the accident as well. Ever since I have been much more wary of my belayers technique and how much attention they allot to their climber. I believe that above all else, attention devoted to the climber is far more important than actual belay technique (to a degree).

TL;DR: I'm much more comfortable on the sharp end with a belayer that didn't drop me than I am with the one who did... BUT, I still climb with the guy that wasn't paying attention and let me hit the dirt causing great physical and emotional distress.

I'm learning a lot about how to avoid getting stuck with the belay duty. I may never belay again.

I don't give a sh** about ego. I care about living.

These excerpts are hurting my brain.

Um, like, don't let go of the rope, man.

And how could someone keep climbing with a partner who dropped them? Nope. We are no longer friends.

I demand my belayer post bearer bonds in my name before I climb, therefore if I perish my young child will be provided for in perpetuity. I also have a blind trust set up.

I could climb with someone who dropped me. Bet there's no more being inattentive for him now. He's disaster proof.

Jesus is my belay

nobody fucks with the Jesus

Tim Lutz wrote:I trust the Gri gri, not necessarily belayers.

I know at least four climbers who were dropped on a grigri.

Thinking that a grigri is foolproof is a good way to get killed. I actually get nervous when I see a grigri, and make sure they know how to splay out slack when clipping (most people seem to do it flat-out WRONG)

ColinW wrote: I apologize for sounding like a dick. I'm not. Climbing is my passion and I've almost died doing it by my own doing. So when people fuck up doing something basic & important, it hits home & I can get pretty heated about it. When it comes to belaying, I take it very seriously and expect others to do the same :) First: By her telling me she's a doctor, I perceived that as someone who is very knowledgeable about risks when someones life/safety is at stake and having someones life at the other end of the rope is something not to be taken lightly. i.e. an observant person. Second: Based on doctor conversation for her job, I took "off and on for 10 years" to coincide with the above answer. Third: I did! Twice! She had none of it. That's when red flag went up and I spoke up. Fourth: Had it been a male, it would've been the same, if not worse. Climb on!

Thanks - I totally agree belaying is serious business and it really sucks if you tried to intervene and she didn't listen.

I disagree that being highly accomplished in one's professional life translates to being a competent belayer though (wish that were the case). Maybe she's a crappy doctor too.... ;)

I admittedly get pretty sensitive about derogatory language (towards anyone - male or female, but on MP it's generally female-directed) and I should know better than to even chime in on these things.

Anyway - it's all good. I do remember reading about your injuries - glad to hear you are still getting after it. Climb safe!

i check to see if they have their belay certification card on their harness

Ball wrote: I know at least four climbers who were dropped on a grigri.

khoa wrote:i check to see if they have their belay certification card on their harness

Do...do those things really exist?

GregMiller wrote:Go climbing as a group of three+, and watch them belay.

This is my go to strategy for checks and balances when climbing with new people. Many of the people I've climbed with from the MP partner finder I've initially invited out as a third or even fourth in a group. I try not to ever resort to climbing alone with a complete stranger or anyone I've never seen give a belay before.

If I've ever gone climbing with someone for the first time ever and it's just us two, they normally have been vouched for by someone I trust.

When I see someone doing something wrong or unsafe, I generally speak up but try to be diplomatic. I don't want to witness or be involved with a de-gloving, a bad fall, or any other accident that could have been avoided had I just spoken up. I don't care if I damage someone's ego if it saves someone from a terrible injury or death. If they refuse to listen, that's their choice.

Climbing with new climber: use a grigri and skinnyish (9.4mm) rope that they can feed through the device without having to hold the cam open. Before taking anyone brand new out I'll have 'em watch this video on the ride down to the Gunks

youtube.com/watch?v=FHdqjjy…

Buff Johnson wrote:Jesus is my belay nobody fucks with the Jesus

Well except the Romans and Starbucks.

matt c. wrote: Well except the Romans and Starbucks.

I thought Romans created Jesus, specifically Titus Flavius.

What did Starbucks do?*

• oh, just found out: red cups

(just another reason I avoid the mass media noise machine)