New Yosemite Free Climbs Select Guidebook Almost Done - Call for Photos!

I would very much like to have the information for routes be more public, however, the history of climbing in the Valley and elsewhere has been one where route developers kept the information about their routes quiet. Not all climbers do this, but many do, and it has been happening since the beginning of climbing.

Of course, publishers charge for their guidebooks and maps, and copyright the material, this gives them some control over the intellectual property. As far as I know, this is acceptable in most of the USA.

Ed Hartouni's suggestion that FA ist have asked him to keep information about climbs secret is unacceptable in a public land environment. If you can climb the mountain without altering it in any way, then go for it. If you have to fix anchors as you go, or want to brag about it on your sponsor's website, then you should provide the public information about your route.

You, Erik Sloan, have been altering routes in the Valley, adding hardware, and as far as I know, you have not been public about, or at least you have only fessed up after the fact on specific climbs that people have asked you about.

Perhaps you can set a good example and provide a list of all the routes in the Valley you have "improved."

This simple policy change will foster a much better dialogue between climbers.

You don't want a dialog, you want the topos, all of them, and you want them for your own guidebook, which you will sell...

In the end we exchanged about a dozen emails, both Roger and I, with Clint Cummins, Ed Hartouni, and Eric Gabel(Donny isn't online much), every time explaining that we are close friends of Sean's and that he wanted us to have the topo.

I don't recall receiving a single email, let alone dozens, regarding Sean Jones' topos, and we have been talking to Sean also, and working with him to find all of his topos.

Eventually someone got through to Ed or Clint and we got the topo.

No one "got through to me," as I said, I didn't receive any email from you or Roger regarding Sean's topos. Your recall on this point is very wrong....

So Ed's suggestion that he is doing things in every Yosemite Climber's best interest, or by request from the FA ist is dubious as well.

You can consider it dubious, but you are speculating, and you have no grounds to do so...

Today I was just out working up a topo of a new route someone had done by climbing it, and checking out some route next to it that had been in the guidebook previously. It was pretty obvious that that existing route probably had not been done in a while, and maybe had not even had a first ascent red point.

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The topo you posted above of Sentinel Creek lacks information, has bolts added, and reroutes previous routes in the area. You know this because you had a conversation with Eric Gabel about it. However, you seem to have "made up" names to routes, didn't know about others (though you could look at this site to get information about them) and didn't talk to the original FA teams (some of whom you know, but perhaps were unaware of their activities in the area).

You have complained about the time has taken us to produce a guide... but we have not cut the same corners producing the Comprehensive as you have in producing the Select and the Big Wall books.

In addition, as I said above, I never received a document from you for me to sign acknowledging my permission to use my image in your Big Wall guide book. It takes a bit more time to do these things correctly, but it is better for everyone in the end to obtain such acknowledgements and permissions.

Looking over your Big Wall guide I also noticed some overlays (and topos) that will require correction.

Our care at producing the Comprehensive guide is because we feel a responsibility to the climbing community. This includes our stewardship of the guidebook material that had originated with George Meyers and passed to Don Reid. The guidebook is transitioning to the Yosemite Climbing Association where I hope the climbing community in Yosemite Valley can take it into the future.

Some of you might wonder who Ed Hartouni is, and whether he's credible.

Well, he has a life outside climbing and, yes, I'd say he's had a pretty damned distinguished career — in a field where literally all you have is your work and your integrity.

You can judge whether he is credible.

T Roper wrote: Joe, are you a big ASCA supporter? Just so everyone knows there was a cry for everyone on SUpertopo for all the members to come to Mtn Proj to slam this guy, just in case you dont recognize any of the names here. Maybe we need to start posting pics of the anchors in Yosemite just to see how ethical the place is?

And how is whether I'm a big ASCA supporter or not is relevant to this discussion? I've replaced 74 local anchors, and I purchased all of the hangers and SS rap rings and 1/2 of the bolts myself with the other half of the bolts donated by another local climber who is co-owner of a fastener company.

T Roper wrote:Just so everyone knows there was a cry for everyone on SUpertopo for all the members to come to Mtn Proj to slam this guy, just in case you dont recognize any of the names here.

I saw no 'cry' for folks to come here from ST, but rather folks there noted he was peddling his wares over here. Bottom line in dealing with a guy like this means from here on out it's going to be a matter of whack-a-mole whenever he pops up on a climbing forum or site that isn't one totally under his control.

Erik Sloan wrote:As for the rest of this thread, this has not turned out to be a place where we can have a constructive conversation about fixed anchor ethics in Yosemite.

Au contraire. We've been having a highly constructive conversation about fixed anchor ethics everywhere; the only bummer here is you just aren't interested in a real conversation. In real conversations people might disagree with you and you might find your worldview, ideas and actions challenged. And that's what's happened here and ST and given the overwhelming sentiment against your retrobolting I'm pretty sure it's now going to take place everywhere you pop-up on-line. The hard fact is you are violating the historically and commonly held fixed anchor ethics against retrobolting and comfortizing. And 'comfortizing' previously just meant comfortizing holds in rock; it's taken you to come along and extend the concept to mid-pitch 'convenience' anchors.

So, yeah, do beat a hasty retreat given you're not interested in a real conversation about fixed pro ethics.

P.S. You clearly have rebolting supporters among some highly reputable Valley climbers and most people dissing you here and ST support those efforts; but none of those same individuals support your retrobolting activities - maybe try taking a hint from them.

Do people have a problem with Erik, the new book, or both?

It seems like he added a couple of anchors on a 10d climb at church bowl and rebolted some aid line. Are there more?

Maybe he is a d*ck and a narcissist, but he is providing a product that people want and filling a void. Today's guidebooks are colorful, interesting, and filled with beta to make finding the route that suits the agenda and conditions of the day easy, in order to maximize the climber's time and enjoyment. Want a afternoon shaded, 4 star crack climb, with bolted belays? Check. Want to do single pitch cragging? Check. Want an area that's good in the rain? There's an app for that. There is no denying that the supertopo's guide looks old and out of date, and Reid's book even more so. Erik see the tidal wave of new and experienced climbers from all over the world wanting to climb in Yosemite, because of national and international attention on the place because of climbers like Honnold, Caldwell, and reel rock films, and he is capitalizing on that. Most climbers just want to climb and don't want to plan and deal with the less interesting parts like the approach and getting off.

So, I have no problems with the book itself, if all the information in it is sourced legally and used with permission, etc.

EDIT: also want to add - clearly Erik is not going to not publish his book just because of people calling him out on stuff he has done. Clearly he has a thick skin. Once the book is available, people will also buy it.

runout wrote:Do people have a problem with Erik, the new book, or both? It seems like he added a couple of anchors on a 10d climb at church bowl and rebolted some aid line. Are there more?

The objections are not to his guide or his rebolting. The objections are to his retrobolting activities and his unwillingness to acknowledge peoples' objections or discuss them. And his activities clearly aren't limited to your description above. In his own words:

Erik Sloan wrote:When my book comes out I know you will see many pitches with mid-pitch belays - people skip them if they want, or use them if they want, no harm, no foul.

Maybe you have no problem with the "just don't clip'em" mentality; most do.

And sure, he'll publish his guide and some folks will buy it, but again, many won't and he's only hurting his own sales with his retrobolting.

• grabs popcorn*

Erik Sloan wrote: As for the rest of this thread, this has not turned out to be a place where we can have a constructive conversation about fixed anchor ethics in Yosemite.

By constructive, do you mean that which feeds your ego and world-view?

Erik Sloan wrote: When that is up, proally by tomorrow night, I will take down this post.

By this post do you mean erase what you wrote? You can do that, I think, minus all the quotes people make of your post, which becomes their post.

If more than that, do you fail to understand how this site works?

Erasing history is always harder than you think... you may find, to your dismay, that rewriting it, as you have done, is easier. But you still have to reconcile it.

runout wrote:Do people have a problem with Erik, the new book, or both? It seems like he added a couple of anchors on a 10d climb at church bowl and rebolted some aid line. Are there more? Maybe he is a d*ck and a narcissist, but he is providing a product that people want and filling a void.

One has to assume jealousy is involved here, usually the internet witch hunts involve that emotion. Jealous of the guy with time to go out and get things done on a daily basis.

I believe these mid pitch bolts are in many ways kind of dumb but I have respect for those who admit what they do and are willing to talk about it even while being trashed on two websites by the internet climbing police. Its way better than the cowards who go out and wreck/chop fun climbs while hiding their identity.

Of course I'm a bit biased since two of Ken Nichols biggest fans, HealyJ and Clint Cummins are involved here.

mountainproject.com/v/new-y…

Well, I just read the entire supertopo thread. What I don't get is why isn't anyone chopping the bolts? Ed is the only one who says he's going to have to chop some bolts. If that many locals on the forum feel that strongly, chopping the bolts would make his topos completely useless.

Albert has chopped the bolts.

Healyje wrote: The objections are not to his guide or his rebolting. The objections are to his retrobolting activities and his unwillingness to acknowledge peoples' objections or discuss them. And his activities clearly aren't limited to your description above. In his own words: Maybe you have no problem with the "just don't clip'em" mentality; most do. And sure, he'll publish his guide and some folks will buy it, but again, many won't and he's only hurting his own sales with his retrobolting.

I do have a problem with retrobolting without permission, and I do think the excuse, "just don't clip them" is stupid. But the book is coming out, whether people like it or not, and it will sell very very well - enough to make him a one-man bolting machine.

wow, over here too! seriously haven't seen this much excitement since the lightning bolt got erased. quite fascinating

Erik Sloan wrote:Did anyone go check out Weekend At Albert's? Super fun spot, established by a guy that is definitely not into retrobolting. The two guys that put up the routes only named two of the routes. I was like 'no names? you mean I get to make them up?', they looked at each other and were like, 'yeah'. Me and a bunch of the local climbers had so much fun coming up with the names. It's a long story, but the 'Together Forever' route is probably also called 'Weekend at Albert's', hahaha.

Looks like Erik misunderstood that Albert just didn't know the names for the other routes, not that they did not have names.

Albert on Supertopo wrote:Eric, to be clear on that climbing area you named "Weekend at Albert's" we ONLY established TWO climbs. "Slip on slime" (put up with Sam R. and John P.) and "Scorpion tale" (John P. and myself). ALL other climbs were already established but we didn't know the names so we did not name them. BTW that's a really bad name for an area and as the vast majority of climbing there was already done, putting my name all over it seems completely inappropriate and discredits the efforts of all of those who did all that hard work.

Does not sound like diligent work as a guidebook author. I imagine the comprehensive guide by Ed and others may take a little longer if they are tracking down real info and actually climbing the routes.

runout wrote: I do have a problem with retrobolting without permission, and I do think the excuse, "just don't clip them" is stupid. But the book is coming out, whether people like it or not, and it will sell very very well - enough to make him a one-man bolting machine.

It "might" sell well. If enough people find out what Nan00k has been up to it may fizzle. The hope is that many(all) will boycott his efforts until he can come to terms with the damage he's doing...and stop doing it. Hell, the the topo sampler he put out for Sentinel Creek is a hack job. Ya'll are clammering for a new guide so bad that you are 'ok' with errors, added bolts and bad hole counts huh? EdH and Clint's guide will be worth the wait.

runout wrote: I do have a problem with retrobolting without permission, and I do think the excuse, "just don't clip them" is stupid. But the book is coming out, whether people like it or not, and it will sell very very well - enough to make him a one-man bolting machine.

I imagine he has now pissed off enough people that some industrious climber will ensure that his guidebook is widely pirated and that his profits are severely diminished.

csproul wrote: I imagine he has now pissed off enough people that some industrious climber will ensure that his guidebook is widely pirated and that his profits are severely diminished.

Doubt it, I see more whiners than doers on ST & here, and the little forum boycotting isn't going to hurt the book sale, not when hordes of foreign climbers visit the valley every day. I doubt they'll give 2 fucks about whether the FA info is completely accurate. The only real way to hurt him financially is to come out with a better guidebook ASAP, but that takes real work.

While this Erik dude sounds like an ass (& I certainly don't support a lot of what he's doing), I can see where he's coming from. If he goes out & do a bunch of work (that needed to be done) on his own, then it's pretty rich for the armchair whiners to dictate what he can do and how they should be done. It's pretty simple: if you don't want a guy like this to exist, don't give him an excuse/reason/opportunity, get all the work done yourself.

reboot wrote: If he goes out & do a bunch of work (that needed to be done) on his own, then it's pretty rich for the armchair whiners to dictate what he can do and how they should be done. It's pretty simple: if you don't want a guy like this to exist, don't give him an excuse/reason/opportunity, get all the work done yourself.

It's hard to argue with the latter, but it's not a matter of armchair whiners dictating anything, it's a matter of simply limiting ones activities to rebolting and abiding by widely held ethics. If he did that none of these threads would exist.

reboot wrote: Doubt it, I see more whiners than doers on ST & here, and the little forum boycotting isn't going to hurt the book sale, not when hordes of foreign climbers visit the valley every day. I doubt they'll give 2 fucks about whether the FA info is completely accurate. The only real way to hurt him financially is to come out with a better guidebook ASAP, but that takes real work. While this Erik dude sounds like an ass (& I certainly don't support a lot of what he's doing), I can see where he's coming from. If he goes out & do a bunch of work (that needed to be done) on his own, then it's pretty rich for the armchair whiners to dictate what he can do and how they should be done. It's pretty simple: if you don't want a guy like this to exist, don't give him an excuse/reason/opportunity, get all the work done yourself.

Yup. People might take the moral high ground when their time and money isn't on the line, but when you think about that most climbers spend a lot of time and money to travel to yosemite to climb - they want to make sure that they aren't spending that time bush whacking or climbing the same routes as everyone else with a supertopo guide. And yeah, very few people care about the back story of what they are buying and how their consumption choices affect others that it isn't going to make a dent in the book sales (ex. outsourcing, war on drugs, meat, Uber, etc, etc). As long as the book helps them have a stress-free vacation, it will be worth the money to those people. How it got made and your complaints won't matter at all.

If only supertopo had kept up the updates and times.

I'm so glad to have been selected to work on the restoration of Girl with a Pearl Earring. I realized a bunch of people I've talked to like mustaches so, while the original painting was good, I thought I'd just go ahead and make a small improvement.

Some may not like the update, but they are of course free to ignore the chopper.

Haha. I like the comparison. Hilarious and sad. Or as Roper implies. Since yosemite is already over bolted, it's ok to continue fucking it up.