New bolts at Crow Hill

M Sprague wrote:I've got to say I like John's attitude. He really helped some areas of New England break free of hidebound tradition.

of course even JM had his limits...........

Zealots of New England unite! Routes are no longer limited to the first ascent tactics. Chop everything, place pitons and layers of retired slings. Make midway anchors and even change ratings! It's all fair and ethical in the eyes of the "community"!

Speaking of which, I'm fairly certain I could solo band wagon. Anyone have a grinder for rent? 5.11x

^ already done on gear

Jonathan Haggerty wrote:Anyone have a grinder for rent?

This guy does: BOSCH

Seriously....

Chop a bolt and 5 more appear, that's my new motto for ct .

Ken sponsored by Bosch?

Thy are GONE!

Ken Nichols wrote:Thy are GONE!

I'm surprised it even took this long.

Bolt it. Make it safe enough with bolts that it can be climbed as a mixed route. That's was done with Cromag, why not this? Or does the "rulebook" allow only one bolt allowed per route?

This route is typically filthy. I checked it out in mid July this year and every hold had to be cleaned. Every route around it was covered in chalk and rubber smears but if you didn't know Dune was there, you wouldn't have known it was an established route. Is it so important to preserve some people's sense of ethics that the rig doesn't get any touches? From what I hear, it's an awesome route, I'd love to project it but top roping it is unsatisfying and I'm not willing to take the risk on gear. Gimme a few fucking bolts so it's safe.

I personally know only one climber who lead it and he went off route for a gear placement. Otherwise, he would have been in death fall territory. Where does that fall in your rulebook? Is that ascent valid?

As for the "no holes in the wall gang." Get over it. A few bolts on this line will give it life. Keep it a trad line and it'll never get climbed more than a couple of times a year--and on top rope. As a climber, the former is a much preferred alternative.

mattyo wrote:Bolt it. Make it safe enough with bolts that it can be climbed as a mixed route. That's was done with Cromag, why not this? Or does the "rulebook" allow only one bolt allowed per route?

In that case why not bolt every single run-out route in all of the USA.
You start pondering doing a route on Poke-O and the run-outs look spooky, just bolt the crap out of it, great mentality. Where do you stop?

At least the route in question here is accessible to top-rope, why would it then be ok to bolt it and not all the multi-pitch routes in the Dacks and NH?

Gym gumbies don't know how to protect a crack, "Bolt it. Make it safe enough", then everyone will be able to climb it.

No rules, right?

Oh come on Luc, that comparison is ridiculous.

We're not talking about pristine, multi-pitch routes on mountainsides. We're talking about a 5 minute approach crag with a dozen or so single pitch routes. There's a bolt on Cromag. There is ugly ass tat on Jane and Tarzan. The slabs have fixed anchors. Until the town changed their policy, it's been a spot where youth groups would go for easy top rope access. Don't tell me bolting Dune is going to ruin the area.

I still go back to, "Why is everybody who says chop it completely ignoring the first ascentionist and his wishes?" Respecting the FA style is a pretty strong traditional ethic and overriding it to eliminate all bolts here hasn't been followed in other cases. It seems to me that that way is pretty illogical and more likely originally based on a dislike for Mallery daring to follow another idea than only climbing ground up etc and helping to usher in sport climbing in New England in places like Rumney and Sundown (and climbing harder to boot). It is not even like this is a sport route. It just has some bolts. All those other arguments about making it easier for others or not are mute.

Hi Reggie,
I believe the route was first done as a sport route.

Is a trad route still "pure" if it has to be practiced on top rope before an attempt is made on gear?

Reggie Pawle wrote:this is really simple guys. if you bolt a trad route, it's not a trad route anymore. the route, as it was once known, is gone. it becomes a sport route. when it becomes accepted as such, it is removed from the class of routes that trad climbers can aspire to, for as long as the cliff, and the bolts, shall stand. that's why we should protect trad routes as trad routes. because there are people who aspire to these routes, dream about these routes, and will eventually repeat these routes. just because the vast majority doesn't care doesn't mean the opportunity should be deprived to those people. the climbing community will be around for millenia, and if we don't consistently separate trad from sport, and respect trad areas, there will be no trad. it will be gone. these routes are scarce, fragile, and valued by many. that's why they should be respected and protected. carry on!

It wasn't a trad route in the sense of only climbed without any fixed gear as done by the first ascentionist, and secondly, it is not a sport route with a few bolts protecting sections.

I was going to be done with this - at least until I heard from the perp. Most of the argument have just simplified to the standard generic ones. But a few points need clarification.

1. It was an established route before the FFA - it was an aid route. Probably not important.
2. Certainly didn't help that the first KNOWN FFA was done by Mallory - but it could have been done by Mother Teresa and they still would have been chopped. There are other examples of bolts added by much more all around respected people that have been chopped - the upper part of Fool on the Hill for example.
3. There are far more then 12 single pitch routes - try 50+ routes. The girdles (done by some pretty respectable folks BITD without adding bolts) have who knows how many pitches.
4. The anchor bolts above the practice face were added with the intent of controlling erosion and protecting the trees - not for convenience.
5. The amount of fixed pro is decreasing - upper bolt on Cro-Nag and most of the pins on Recidivist are gone.
6. Maintained tat is not evil. Bolts need maintenance too. Harder and more invasive to do.

Just think of the crag as existing in Wales - its often compared to the grit anyway. Similar concept of preserving a very limited resource and not dumbing it down for instant gratification. Headpointing doesn't seem to have stifled the delelopment of some pretty good climbers from the UK.

I'm glad you brought up the UK Eric..not me. Crow Hill is a traditonal area, for those who need clarity on this issue, look it up. To add bolts to a route so one can "work it in safety" makes no sense,,who is to say what is safe enough ?

You know whats safe ? a top rope

maybe if you lead 5.8 and want to try a 5.10, you may"need" more bolts than someone else..You don't need them.

Go and find your own, new route to bolt up, not an established lead. The number of times a route has been led doesn't matter..Maybe Stage Fright on Cathedral should be bolted so more people can do it ? Damn, it's only 12C..

Correction to an earlier post by me: the person to contact at WMCC re: new route development is Pete Clark of course. Not Pete Ward. My brain said Clark my fingers typed Ward.

George Mallory->Everest, John Mallery-> Crow Hill

You mean I was confusing them all along ??? I could see John in tweeds though, but never on Everest.