Figure 8 device: thoughts?

I picked on of the BD figure 8 devices up a few months ago because it was on sale and I was curious. I finally tried it this evening and I actually quite like how it feels for rappelling.

But obviously these devices are not a mainstream item anymore, and I'm curious as who is using one and why. Do you use one? Did you used to and stopped? If so why?

I quit using one when ropes got skinny; there wasn't as much friction as I'd like. And I had a "tube style" device which worked better for belaying anyway, so why carry two rap devices?

I didn't even think about the extra friction I'd get on a thicker rope. I tested it on a chunk of 8.4mm.

I have seen them twist the rope after lowering or rappel.

They twist the @#%# out of the rope.

Advantage: more metal to dissipate heat, but not enough to work for really long raps like cavers sometimes do (that's why high rise window washers, cavers, etc run brake-bars, not 8s or tube style like ATC, otherwise they'd constantly burn themselves and/or glaze the rope sheath).

Disavantage: Just about everything else.

Who still uses them? N00bs, schools that have had them in their gear stash since the 70s, crusty oldsters.

I use one quite a lot running canyons. I have no really complaints. I have not noticed that they twist the rope more than any other descender as Will and IE have noted.

You can use the small hole to belay with, in a stitch plate fashion, similar an ATC.

The disadvantage is that you can only belay one rope at a time and there is no keeper for the stitch plate.

Makes a great paperweight.

I use them a ton for rappelling. I do a lot of slot canyons in southern utah, and when your rope gets sandy it wears groves in gear really fast(Worst canyon i ever did i wore out an 8 in a day) so the fact that it only wears on the 8 instead of the ATC and carabiner is nice. I also think that they flow smother then the ATC. Then because when canyoneering i often take people new to rope work i find the device is much easier to learn then the ATC(i don't really understand why, but they pick it up faster). The 8 also has a super easy lock off method. Then you can use the small loop as an atc as mentioned.

Also as mentioned they twist ropes really bad, and if you do a double line rap it will twist the two lines together that can make it hard to pull your rope. So if you are using both 8s and ATCs have the ATCs go first, otherwise the 8s will twist the ropes together and it will act like a knot below the ATC when they go.

As for a belay device for climbing, they can be used, but i remember looking at Petzl's instructions and they had alot more factors to be aware of compared to the ATC, especially for the lead belay. Another thought is the 8 does not have nearly as much breaking power as the ATC so if you caught a lead fall it will always be a soft catch compared to the ATC, just like the ATC is always a soft catch compared to the grigri.

So in short for climbing I leave my 8 at home, but when i go canyoneering i take the 8, and an atc as a back up(I have had people drop devices down cliffs and in pools of deep murky sandy water). Both have strong points and weak points, and I will always have both tools in my gear closet.

For normal climbing theres no real use for em as others have mentioned

Belaying with modern slick thin ropes may not be the best and they can twist ropes

Not to mention they can break lockers ....

theuiaa.org/upload_area/fil…

When someone is carrying em at the crag ... Theyre either old school geezers, canyoneers, or total newbs who want every shiny piece of gear ... More often the latter

On long multi, no one carries em

;)

In situations where you are wearing two sets of gloves and really don't want to take them off, e.g. above 7000m, they are used as they are much easier to get a frozen fixed line into than into a belay plate.

I have a small one, which has been used for the above, but I have often wondered how it might work with a single and a 5mm pull line. It might stop one rope feeding faster than the other as the ropes will be squashed on top of each other in the device. This would mean you would not need to set it carabiner block style. Anyone got a rope, a fig 8, some 5mm and a tree? And fancies trying this and reporting back?

Thanks for the replies.

I really just bought it out of curiosity as I didn't think I'd get the chance to use someone else's, considering how I've never seen anyone use one. And I figure it can't hurt to know how to use one.

David - I think you're probably right about the extra friction keep two ropes of different sizes feeding equally. From my little back deck experiment, it really didn't seem like one side of the rope would slip past the other on the device.

Obviously the figure-8s aren't nearly as versatile as an ATC, but paired with a grigri they might be more useful. I did a little reading and it seems some people don't find that using them kinks the rope. I may just have to go find out for myself.

I use one for short or low angle raps in canyons. They're also nice for wet disconnects or flowing water canyons.

But I mostly use them because they were cheap/free and I don't want to ruin my nicer atcs or rap devices on sandy ropes. Grooves the heck out of the 8 even. A long rap could toast an 8 with a single use. It does twist the rope something awful. Less so on statics.

Pretty much agree with everyone else, figure-8 is good for rappelling, not so good for climbing. However, there is one advantage of a figure-8 device over a tubular device that no one else has mentioned yet: it may be easier to pass a knot on rappel with a figure-8, i f the knot is small enough to go through the large hole. You can just pass the knot through once you unweight the rope. With a tubular device, you have to take it off the rope in order to pass a knot. But this one small advantage is still not enough to get me to use a figure-8 device.

my dad uses one. He started climbing in the late 60's and picks it up once a decade. as far as I can tell he's the only one left that bothers with one.

Great with mittens.

jacob m s wrote:As for a belay device for climbing, they can be used, but i remember looking at Petzl's instructions and they had alot more factors to be aware of compared to the ATC, especially for the lead belay. Another thought is the 8 does not have nearly as much breaking power as the ATC so if you caught a lead fall it will always be a soft catch compared to the ATC,...

A trick us old-schoolers did bitd was to use the small hole as an ATC device. Not unlike the use of a single link of chain, which was used prior to the availability of the Stitch Plate in this country, which was prior to the Tuber, a.k.a. the original ATC.

Somewhere in a box in the basement resides all this stuff from the 70's.

Ok for short drops in caves on muddy ropes, where you do not want the weight of a rack. Mostly replaced by Petzl Stop and such.

Will S wrote:Advantage: more metal to dissipate heat, but not enough to work for really long raps like cavers sometimes do (that's why high rise window washers, cavers, etc run brake-bars, not 8s or tube style like ATC, otherwise they'd constantly burn themselves and/or glaze the rope sheath).

On my understanding this is not really correct. In my experience fig-8 don't run cooler than tube style devices.

On a fig-8 most of the friction is metal on rope. On a tube device a large proportion if no the majority is internal rope friction due to tight radius bends. Thus less heat is transferred to the rope.

High rise window washes and cavers use brake bars because of friction adjustability, nothing to do with heat.

That said, I haven't seen thorough tests. Some stuff here but nothing useful about fig-8s. Maybe Jim Titt can add some thoughts...

Could be, Patto.

I've burned the crap out of myself on the ATC plenty of times on normal 70m raps, but can definitely tell you long raps run brake bars due to heat and potential to glaze/melt the rope, not just ability to add bars/adjust friction. You also have the adv of being able to swap out the wear parts instead of replacing the whole rig. BTW, your link there only looks at raps <50m.

Marc801 wrote: A trick us old-schoolers did bitd was to use the small hole as an ATC device. Not unlike the use of a single link of chain, which was used prior to the availability of the Stitch Plate in this country, which was prior to the Tuber, a.k.a. the original ATC. Somewhere in a box in the basement resides all this stuff from the 70's.

Yes and still has application for frozen fat ropes

patto wrote: O....High rise window washes and cavers use brake bars because of friction adjustability, nothing to do with heat. That said, I haven't seen thorough tests. Some stuff here but nothing useful about fig-8s. Maybe Jim Titt can add some thoughts...

In addition to friction adjustment, you can use Stainless break bars, which do not wear out on muddy ropes. I really muddy rope will wear through an aluminum brake bar quickly.