Bowline

pfft, you guys obviously don't have enough contact with the opposite sex. I get laid far too often to concern myself with such matters.

Guy Keesee wrote:...if your going to be dogging, just tuck the end of the rope in the fig-eight right where it cinches down....

I'm not sure what tuck you mean here, but at least one method is potentially dangerous if you ring-load the tie-in loop, because the tuck apparently makes it much easier for the knot to roll:

See also mountainproject.com/v/figur…

rgold.... #3 sure looks dangerous. ESP not clipping the anchor into your harness loop.
My tuck back is not like that.....and I only stick like 3/8 inch from the end in, keeps it from cinching down-extra tight.

If you forget to tie a knot, no matter what knot one uses, your screwing up.

I hope we can ALL agree on that one.

Its just my personal little beef with people who show off all the knott skills they know..... or don't know.

I like to be able to verify by eye if its correct.

Guy Keesee wrote: I like to be able to verify by eye if its correct.

Which in no way requires a figure-8.

Jim Titt wrote: If he used a decent tie-in knot he could climb as well as this noob:-)

He clearly needs the recovery time it takes to untie a figure 8 after you've fallen on it a half-dozen times...

Healyje wrote: He clearly needs the recovery time it takes to untie a figure 8 after you've fallen on it a half-dozen times...

and yet he clearly has more experience working projects and taking whippers than the vast majority of folks here ...

heres another mindless stoooopid bum tying his knot working that gumbay dawn wall thingamajig ...

the problem with the bowline isnt its "safety" ... but rather everyone has their own pet variation which everyone argues about whether that particular variation is 'safe" or not

even MP "experts" argue back and forth about which bowline is "safe" ... we can dig up the old threads

if my partner is using a bowline i just say "is your knot good, yr responsible for making sure yr pet variation is tied properly" ...

theres simply no way im going to memorize every single variation to the point where i can check it at a glance

one thing i have noticed is some newbies use a bowline which they learned on da intrawebz to tie in because its "advanced" and "cool" ... they think it makes em seem more experienced

;)

Bearbreeder has a point. There's the regular and dutch navy bowlines, and for each of them a double version, together with finishing knots on the tie-in loop, the Yosemite finish, and the Yosemite finish with barrel knot. Then there is the rethreaded bowline on a bight (the version used in Europe), Joe's czech bowline which may or may not be the same as the rethreaded bowline on a bight, the Edwards bowline (only understood by British climbers after an entire night at the pub (see ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…), the Eskimo bowline (which is the one way to get a bowline wrong), and the water bowline to mention just a few.

Personally, I don't expect anyone to check whether my knot has been tied correctly, so whether someone is capable of checking my knot if of no interest to me.

Rolf R wrote:I've been using a bowline with a bite for the last 10 years after climbing more sport than trad. The knot is much easier to untie after repeated falls and is as safe as the classic figure eight. The only caveat is, that the knot MUST be finished with a bite, I loop the rope back around my harness tie in and finish with a double bite.

What do you mean the knot MUST be finished with a double bight? (notice correct spelling)

Don't you mean it must be finished with a double overhand?

Note: a bight is a bend in a rope. It's not a knot.

Deimos wrote:As somebody posted upthread, it is exactly the same knot as a rethreaded bowline, just tied differently. So it can be used just like a bowline for tieing around large (or tall) objects.

A bowline on a bight is not the same as a threaded bowline.

A bowline on a bight is tied in the middle of a rope and has two bights.

The "threaded" bowline (aka. regular bowline) is tied at the end of the rope and has one bight.

And they are tied quite differently.

And wouldn't a rethreaded bowline on a bight properly have only one loop, not two??

If I understand the terminology correct; A bowline on a bight and a rethreaded bowline look exactly the same. One is tied in the middle of the rope, one at the end of the rope. Both have two loops of rope.

rethreaded: peakinstruction.com/blog/kn…

on a bight: animatedknots.com/bowlinebi…

rgold wrote:Personally, I don't expect anyone to check whether my knot has been tied correctly, so whether someone is capable of checking my knot if of no interest to me.

Human error is the #1 cause of accidents in rock climbing. That's why we use safety checks when tying into the rope. It only takes less than 30 seconds if you know what you are doing.

If someone had checked Lynn Hill's knot and John Long's knot then neither of them would have had an accident.

I have caught many incorrectly tied or unfinished knots in the last 13 years.

csproul wrote:If I understand the terminology correct; A bowline on a bight and a rethreaded bowline look exactly the same. One is tied in the middle of the rope, one at the end of the rope. Both have two loops of rope. rethreaded: peakinstruction.com/blog/kn… on a bight: animatedknots.com/bowlinebi…

Check again. They are not the same knot.

rockklimber wrote: If someone had checked Lynn Hill's knot and John Long's knot then neither of them would have had an accident.

True, and I wouldn't have had to solo a pitch years ago after a rope I never tied to fell off. But you wouldn't have had to check whether the knot was tied correctly, just whether or not it was tied at all, which is a different and much simpler check and doesn't require any understanding of what the knot should or should not look like, and that was the issue that drew my comment in the first place. That comment stands; I don't personally need anyone to check whether I have correctly tied my knot, but I don't mean this to be relevant or apply to anyone else.

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csproul is correct, a bowline on a bight and the rethreaded bowline are the same knot, just tied differently, one using an end so that it can be threaded through the harness tie-in points and the other tied on a bight which cannot contain any closed link. But there is some confusion, because you can also just tie a bowline with a bight of rope, and this is not what is usually meant by a bowline on a bight.

The reason the knots in the diagrams linked by csproul are not the same is that the rethreaded one is a double bowline and the bowline on a bight is a single bowline. You could tie either one single or double. (Here "single" and "double" refers to whether you have one or two turns of rope before you thread the end through to start making the knot.)

rockklimber wrote: If someone had checked Lynn Hill's knot and John Long's knot then neither of them would have had an accident.

Ha, yea, I wouldent hold your breath. It depends on who that someone is. Every time I climb with a new partner at the gym I tie a bowline, and hold it in plain view and ask "is my figure eight good?" About 50% say yes....

Sadly 20kN, this is a known weakness in the checking procedure---it turns out to be difficult for the checker to notice something unexpected. See, for example, wildfiretoday.com/2010/03/0…

Another reason why you ought to feel 100% certain you know how to tie your own knot.

rockklimber wrote: Check again. They are not the same knot.

Sorry, I just tied both knots in my living room. I tied a Bowline on a bight, and I tied a single bowline and re-traced it. It looks exactly the same to me. They both look like this:

The knot on the left was tied in the middle of the cord. It is a bowline on a bight (as tied on the Grog's link). The knot on the right is a single bowline that has been re-traced. They look exactly the same to me. Am I missing something?

Well if all the MP experts are confused about which bowline is which ...

Imagine how a "normal" climber feels when his/her partner uses their pet bowline variation ...

KISS ...

Most of these intrawebz discussions on bowlines invariably turn towards all thae variations and if they are indeed all "safe" ...

;)

Csproul

Same knot, just tied in a totally different method. I guess you could say the exact same outcome from two different routines.

rgold wrote:Another reason why you ought to feel 100% certain you know how to tie your own knot.

I lead rope-solo for about 70% of my climbing and have for decades which means I have to check my own knots. I get it in general, but at this point it feels a bit weird to entertain abdicating the responsibility to anyone else. You shouldn't leave the ground without double/triple checking everything yourself regardless of whether anyone else does or knot.