Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

reboot wrote: Sure I may be, but if you seriously held the brake end and the Grigri doesn't lock, we'd have seen a lot more of these accidents. You contend somehow holding the climber's end was the problem. Well, what if you (as the belayer) didn't but somebody else did? What if it wasn't a person but friction thru the rope system (from the rope running over a small roof or what not). Can you explain to me, how besides voodoo magic, the Grigri would behave differently in these situations?

Jeez dude, give it up. I posted precisely this situation when I described the incident in Maple. Yes, with lots of friction in the system, the Grigri DOES behave the same way!

Did you bother to watch the Petzl video someone posted, showing the dangers of holding the climber's side?!?

It doesn't happen all the time because the forces have to be just right (tautology):
- either due to friction, soft fall, slow take, or belayer holding the climber's side, the Grigri doesn't lock up.
- now you are catching a fall with minimal help from the device.
- if it slips at all, it can slowly accelerate without locking the Grigri.

I bet I could reproduce this in less than 20 tries at the climbing wall. But instead, I'll be a safe belayer...

rgold wrote: I think this puts the final piece in the puzzle: * Overgripping with the feeding hand can initially keep the cam from engaging and cause the rope to run. * If the feeding hand is also too close to the device, it can be pulled onto the cam then the cam stays disengaged. * Once that happens, you are belaying with a disengaged Grigri, which is not equivalent to an ATC. The fact that two (known) conditions have to be met helps to explain the rarity of the phenomenon, especially in view of likelihood that many belayers do grab hard with the feeding hand, especially when lifted and nothing bad happens. If a fall happens just after the belayer is pulling in some slack, i.e. for a take, it is quite possible that the feeding hand could be right on top of the device at the moment of loading. It is too bad that Petzl chose to illustrate the second condition with a picture that also shows the climber not using the brake hand, because that suggests there is a potential danger only if the brake hand is not on the rope.

But Mort said he did not see anything visibly wrong with the belayer's left hand (the climber end)

Mort wrote:Her right hand was bandaged due to the rope burns, but I don't believe there was anything wrong with her left hand

So, what? The belayer over gripped to override the camming mechanism and then let go instantly to avoid injuries while keeping her brake hand firmly on? Or that gripping the climber end of the rope was never a factor in this accident and that there was inadequate force applied to the brake strand? Or that the gri gri doesn't work with this particular rope, being brand new and too slick?

maybe this helps:

rgold wrote:Uh, Greg: you just announced it.

Yes, I did. Thanks for your reply. I was hoping for a response from Dana regarding "doing other things" while belaying. I do agree that this is reasonable in some scenarios. But, in a thread where we are trying to shed some light on subtleties that even diehard, expert, gri gri belayers may have not been aware of, I was hoping Dana could elaborate on his comment and include the caveats of auto block mode for the greater good of the community, or at least this thread. Although he didn't say it specifically, his comment alluded to hands free belaying, at least in my mind, which is ok according to some and not ok according to others. Maybe we could drift the thread away from gri gris and move on to auto blocks and site a bunch of accidents that have happened (including the one I witnessed) in hopes to prevent others. Maybe we could get another 10 pages.

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Holy crap. Climbing 41 years here. Just learned something new, and want to thank everyone, but especially John, for helping me to learn a new thing. I own about every belay device made and use them often. I didn't know this:

If they're holding the climbers-rope too tightly, the Gri-gri can't lock even with the brake hand holding on.

THANK YOU!

....

I want to report another accident due to mis-use of a gri-gri. My gri-gri just got dropped 200ft on a route by my friend and the poor thing didn't survive the fall.

People need to learn not to drop them while climbing. They are innocent and dropping them that far can cause retirement damage.

Can we please think about them first before accidentally dropping them down a cliff?

Also I had a pair of them and now I got to tell his brother that I got at the same time that he isn't coming home now!

Dana Bartlett wrote:Greg, mea culpa for being oblique. If you search this site you'll find many posts in which people claim that a major advantage of a plaquette device in guide mode is that you can let go of the brake strand "and do other things, and this saves a lot of time on long climbs." Doing this, according to some, allows the belayer to re-arrange gear, eat, drink, change clothes, change stations on the radio, take out the trash, etc. I've done plenty of long climbs (whatever that is), and I think this is nonsense.

I do the same and have been way before the advent of the BD atc guide with the Gigi. This is not a news flash. There is a subtle fail mode that some are not aware. That is what I was trying to get out of you. I don't like to sound like a preacher. The failure mode I witnessed occurred to an "experienced" climber that owned the guide for several years kind of like the gri gri accidents.

Why should it matter that the climber strand is gripped if the break hand is also gripped during a fall?

Also, I do not see how holding onto the climber strand of the rope will allow for the rope to continuously feed through. Can someone please explain this? Thanks.

I got dropped by a guy on thursday (who I met here on MP) who didn't know how to use his gri gri properly. Ended up being about 6 inches above a bolt and taking a 40 foot fall. Luckily I walked away with a pulled back muscle and some good road rash. Wouldn't recommend it.

Kennedy O'Donnell wrote:Why should it matter that the climber strand is gripped if the break hand is also gripped during a fall? Also, I do not see how holding onto the climber strand of the rope will allow for the rope to continuously feed through. Can someone please explain this? Thanks.

Hi Kennedy,

This has been explained many times in the previous 9,999 posts: holding the climber's strand can prevent sufficient force to engage the cam. As evidence, you can feed rope through slowly without engaging the cam, right? Holding a fall on a Grigri w/o an engaged cam is very difficult -- it doesn't behave like an ATC. As evidence, threading it backwards is a life-threatening mistake.

Hope that summarizes the consensus,
Jeff

Greg D wrote: I do the same and have been way before the advent of the BD atc guide with the Gigi. This is not a news flash. There is a subtle fail mode that some are not aware. That is what I was trying to get out of you. I don't like to sound like a preacher. The failure mode I witnessed occurred to an "experienced" climber that owned the guide for several years kind of like the gri gri accidents.

please do explain because this is news to me as i see many guides and other experienced climbers using plaquettes in guide modes and eating/drinking/re-racking while belaying because it's "hands free." I personally, always keep my brake hand on to keep from developing bad habits but i was under the impression that auto-block mode was "handsfree"

sorry, Mort...this is only post #301

So as a crescendo to this topic, should we all melt down our Gri Gris and dig our Sticht plates from the inner recesses of our collective gear boxes? Maybe I can sling my Gri Gri, and use it as an emergency Hex/large nut?

Mort wrote:holding the climber's strand can prevent sufficient force to engage the cam.

Yes, as can from rock friction or a slab fall.

Mort wrote:Holding a fall on a Grigri w/o an engaged cam is very difficult

Holding a real fall on a Grigri w/o an engaged cam can be very difficult, but holding a fall where the Grigri cam doesn't engage b/c of insufficient fall force is VERY EASY to do with the brake hand. Otherwise, it's a serious design flaw b/c this scenario can happen regardless of whether you hold the climber's side of the rope. That's what you've failed to understand so far.

Another voice of experience, this time from Andrew Bisharat. See eveningsends.com/climbing/n… All material below quoted as-is.

Left Hand Off

One scenario in which a climber gets dropped is when the belayer grabs the rope with his left hand (i.e., the “guide hand”) during a fall. By gripping the rope above the Grigri, you will potentially prevent the device from locking up. I’ve personally witnessed this happen more than a few times.

We use the left/guide hand either to feed rope out to a lead climber, or to take in slack. But that is the left hand’s only job. So, unless you are feeding rope or taking in slack, do not keep your left hand gripping the lead end of the rope.

Don’t Wear a Belay Glove on the Left Hand

Another tip to prevent the above scenario is to not wear a belay glove on the left hand. When a climber falls, and you’re unknowingly grabbing onto the lead end of the rope with your left hand, you’re much more likely to continue holding onto the rope if you’re wearing a glove—and as I just explained, by doing so, you’re potentially preventing the Grigri from locking up.

Its time to wave the white flag

Many if not most folks dont care about it

Some take belaying seriously, many dont

Tons of folks cant admit that they may be potentially be doing things wrong, or make mistakes

The best you can do is make sure that you dont drop anyone and your partners dont drop you

Its all intraweb fun and games till someone decks

Doesnt matter how many accident reports get posted or folks who have been dropped chime in ... Folks will just ignore it all

Over and over again people will get dropped regardless of whatever happens on MP, or any attempts to "educate" em

It basically comes down to a matter of ego .... "Im know im a great belayer, shut up !!!"

reboot wrote: Yes, as can from rock friction or a slab fall. Holding a real fall on a Grigri w/o an engaged cam can be very difficult, but holding a fall where the Grigri cam doesn't engage b/c of insufficient fall force is VERY EASY to do with the brake hand. Otherwise, it's a serious design flaw b/c this scenario can happen regardless of whether you hold the climber's side of the rope. That's what you've failed to understand so far.

how do you explain the rope burns on the brake hand then?

reboot wrote: Holding a real fall on a Grigri w/o an engaged cam can be very difficult, but holding a fall where the Grigri cam doesn't engage b/c of insufficient fall force is VERY EASY to do with the brake hand. Otherwise, it's a serious design flaw b/c this scenario can happen regardless of whether you hold the climber's side of the rope. That's what you've failed to understand so far.

And you've failed to understand that you're wrong. Try lowering an object (not a real human) that weighs 100 lbs more than you, similar to the accident being discussed, w/o the cam engaged. There is a window of opportunity where the force is not great enough to engage the cam, but more than you can hold with the cam open. Once the rope starts to slip, it accelerates. Call it a design flaw if you want, but it's real.

In the case of Jim's accident, hitting the end of the rope during the initial fall, appeared to have locked up the cam. Then for whatever reason (being pulled off the ground, slick new rope, grabbing the wrong side of the rope, we'll never know), the force on the cam was reduced to the point where it unlocked. He said his descent was jerky, stop-and-go, so perhaps the cam was locking and unlocking. Rope vibration? Belayer's weight oscillating in the air once she was pulled off the ground?

Deny reality all you want, just please don't belay me or anyone I love.

Mort wrote: And you've failed to understand that you're wrong. Try lowering an object (not a real human) that weighs 100 lbs more than you, similar to the accident being discussed, w/o the cam engaged. There is a window of opportunity where the force is not great enough to engage the cam, but more than you can hold with the cam open.

The force needed to engage the cam is just over 49N or 5kg, you sure you can´t hold that?
The force you need to apply to the braking strand to achieve lock-up is even more miserable, about 2.5N or 0.25kg (about 4m of rope is always enough when I use mine for top-rope soloing.

What GriGri´s don´t like is the force being applied very slowly, then they will slowly let the rope slide through but since it is a)slow b)well known c)easy to stop by giving either strand a jerk then it isn´t a major problem. Euros were taught from an early age to leave some slack so a faller always locked the device up, that´s why Americans laugh at French guys casually holding the brake strand with a loop of slack to the climber and smoking with the other hand and French guys laught at Americans hitting the ground. We are actually taught to jerk the climber-side strand away from the GriGri to lock it these days but I´m old-school.

Jim Titt wrote: that´s why Americans laugh at French guys casually holding the brake strand with a loop of slack to the climber and smoking with the other hand and French guys laught at Americans hitting the ground.

HAHAHA!!! Thanks Jim... u just made my mornin'! Stupid 'mericans...