Rappel Back-ups

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matt c. wrote:For me, the jury is still out on friction hitches. Yes, they can save your life but only if they are set up correctly. With a friction hitch, the autoblock can be tricky to set up and fail relatively easily. I don't like the idea of giving someone a false sense of security during rappelling. Here is an example of when the 'auto-block' failed. From what I read, this type of failure is relatively common. youtube.com/watch?v=3T4FT2S…

Is it just me, or did he thread the rope through the ATC funny, using both holes for one rope? Time 1:06

George yes you are correct. The issue though with the traditional spectra DCs wasn't that people were clipping into it incorrectly(although it happens), the issue was that people would either clip into a chain link correctly and then accidentally shock load it causing that particular link to break, then shock loading the next link, but dissipating the load each time where you would eventually stop breaking the next link or until you hit the end of the loop. The real issue was that people would clip correctly into the end of the chain, climb above the clip in point then accidentally slip an fall shock loading the DC causing a tremendous force in that static DC where it would then explode the DC where it was clipped into the carabiner due to force and heat of the low melting point of the spectra. A nylon DC is much better.
Hope this helps...

Matt

bb wrote: "the PAS is no safer than a nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... and in fact may be theoretically more dangerous if you believe in the deadly dyneema thing"

I'm looking at my Metolius PAS, and the material appears to be about 70% nylon and 30% Spectra (Dyneema). While Dyneema has a lower melting point than nylon, I've seen nylon melt due to friction with other nylon. Unless you make a friction hitch out of a PAS, I have a hard time seeing how its 30% Dyneema could be problem. If you think it's ok to shock-load your nylon sling, think again. A nylon sling DOESN'T stretch noticeably, and knots weaken it. I agree with Matt that shock-loading a Spectra (Dyneema) daisy may melt it, but no one should be shock-loading a nylon daisy or sling, because of the impact it may create on the body and the anchor.

Good video capture, Fiona. That's what he did alright! I've never attempted a rappel with an ATC threaded like that, but my guess is the angle of the rope going into the device is not sharp enough to provide the necessary friction. What the hell were they rapping single lines for, anyway? Weren't they canyoneering and doing pull downs?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's taken short cuts because of fatigue, haste, or just because we've gotten away with short cuts hundreds of times before. I know that if anchoring on a ledge, or backing up my Tyrolean, is made easy, then I will do it. Sure, I should do it anyway, yet the quick convenience of a PAS can help me just do it.

Stich wrote:What the hell were they rapping single lines for, anyway? Weren't they canyoneering and doing pull downs?

Canyoneering rappels are typically done on a single line, with a thin tag line for retrieval.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/biner-blocks-pull-cords-and-all-that-stuff/

The dude let go of the rope..... to stop his face from planting into the stone.

Pretty dumb

Fiona Dunne wrote:> Is it just me, or did he thread the rope through the ATC funny, using both holes for one rope? Time 1:06

wouldnt that only be possible if he threaded the rope through it? no way to pass a bite through like that.

It does look odd, but i think its more likely that it just looks kind of like that than he actually threaded the end of the rope through it like that (would either have to pull the entire length of the rope through or do it at the top of the rope before securing it to the anchor).

thoughts?

bearbreeder wrote: the PAS is no safer than a nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... and in fact may be theoretically more dangerous if you believe in the deadly dyneema thing

The PAS is a scourge on trad climbing. It's something guides like, and thus guided clients who eventually flee the nest will take into the real world.

What is wrong with using the rope? What is wrong with that 4ft sling you are most likely carrying. Why do you need a specialized piece of gear that serves no other purpose but seems to be a clusterfuck when it's not being used.

The worst part about the PAS is it seems to proliferate like cancer cells. I had one for a few months, and thankfully had to cut it. Gone and never will be replaced.

George Bracksieck wrote:bb wrote: "the PAS is no safer than a nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... and in fact may be theoretically more dangerous if you believe in the deadly dyneema thing" I'm looking at my Metolius PAS, and the material appears to be about 70% nylon and 30% Spectra (Dyneema). While Dyneema has a lower melting point than nylon, I've seen nylon melt due to friction with other nylon. Unless you make a friction hitch out of a PAS, I have a hard time seeing how its 30% Dyneema could be problem. If you think it's ok to shock-load your nylon sling, think again. A nylon sling DOESN'T stretch noticeably, and knots weaken it. I agree with Matt that shock-loading a Spectra (Dyneema) daisy may melt it, but no one should be shock-loading a nylon daisy or sling, because of the impact it may create on the body and the anchor.

The old PAS breaks in a factor ~1.25 fall in tests

It may have nylon but the dyneema portiob doesnt allow much stretch

Does this matter? ... That depends on your point of view ... There have been fatalities with dyneema slings used as lanyards, which is why beal made the dynaconnect lanyard

Personally im not too worried, but if we are going all out on "safety" on this thread, then yr better off using a nylon sling, or a beal dynamic lanyard, than a PAS

Nick Stayner wrote: What if you're out of rope? Ever link pitches? Ever climb a 60m (or 70m)?

A clove hitch only takes like 6 inches of rope. So if you pull really hard you can pull enough rope to make the hitch.
Still doesn't work? Attach yourself with a sling. No slings i hear you say? Have any cams left? There are plenty of slings on them. What no cams? stick a biner on each side of a nut and bam, a quick draw. You have arrive at the belay without anything?... i guess you are screwed, time to down climb

Nick Stayner wrote:Ever practice self rescue techniques? Tell me about escaping a belay while anchored with your rope vs. anchored with something independent, i.e. a sling or PAS.

go indirect and unitie... its just one more step. if you are self rescuing this step is one of the least complicated things ahead of you.

I think the whole argument is now beyond silly. Anyone who knows anything can manage with one or without one. Having an installed tether is a convenience that some people find helpful and others feel a powerful urge to disparage. The world is a whacky place.

Just about everyone is totally loaded with gear that isn't "necessary." As I mentioned, there isn't a single sewn item in the modern climber's pile of stuff than couldn't be replaced with something knotted. Just take a deep breath and relax fer chrissake, because unless you are Rich Romano you too are using stuff that could be dispensed with.

A very small part of the silliness is that "PAS" has, like "nylon" itself, become a generic term, so people using it may not be referring to the Metolius product. In that regard we might note that the Sterling Chain Reactor is a "PAS" that is made of nylon and withstands three factor-2 falls in testing.

Like telling me the beer can in my chalk bag is pointless. Sure it only serves one purpose most of the time but you can once in a while put it in a crack a stick a sling on it.

How many factor-2 falls can that beer can take? Don't be an idiot and use a beer can that will snap under a dynamic shock load.

thanks for all the insight steve! back ups should be standard! whats better nylon slings or the newer dyneema? i notice with one thin rope its better to add an extra biner to the belay rope adding friction to the rappel....slowing the system. seems like a good trick for thin ,wet ,sketchy situations............

rgold wrote:How many factor-2 falls can that beer can take? Don't be an idiot and use a beer can that will snap under a dynamic shock load.

They haven't made FF2 beer cans since the 70's. The old steel ones.

The History of Beer Cans

matt c. wrote:For me, the jury is still out on friction hitches. Yes, they can save your life but only if they are set up correctly. With a friction hitch, the autoblock can be tricky to set up and fail relatively easily. I don't like the idea of giving someone a false sense of security during rappelling. Here is an example of when the 'auto-block' failed. From what I read, this type of failure is relatively common.

An autoblock is stupid easy to set up. 2-3 wraps around the rope. The jury is most assuredly not out. Saying the "jury is out" because they can cause problems if set up incorrectly is like saying ATC's aren't proven belay devices because you can rig them incorrectly as well. I have never had an auto block fail and I use one on most all rappels. Its just like any part of climbing, learn how to use it properly and its works fine.

bb wrote: "There have been fatalities with dyneema slings used as lanyards, which is why beal made the dynaconnect lanyard"

Those fatalities were on via ferratas. Those victims might have died anyway from the severe impacts that can happen on via ferratas, even if they were using nylon lanyards without something like Screamers incorporated into the lanyard attachments. That's why Beal, Petzl and other manufacturers have since begun incorporating what are basically Screamers into their lanyards for via ferratas.

I suppose that someone could attach a Screamer to an anchor, if the intent is to climb above the anchor while tethered to it. However, being belayed with the dynamic rope clipped through the anchor would be a lot smarter.

rgold wrote:I think the whole argument is now beyond silly.

I agree that there is a lot of silliness involved in the thread. But there is some good information also. Auto blocks, how they work, how they can fail. The danger of miss clipping an ATC on rappel. The courtesy of a fireman's belay, if necessary. PAS, the good the bad and the ugly.

Another new set up to learn; Purcell Prusik.

This newbie appreciates the frank discussion.

James Hicks wrote: An autoblock is stupid easy to set up. 2-3 wraps around the rope. The jury is most assuredly not out. Saying the "jury is out" because they can cause problems if set up incorrectly is like saying ATC's aren't proven belay devices because you can rig them incorrectly as well. I have never had an auto block fail and I use one on most all rappels. Its just like any part of climbing, learn how to use it properly and its works fine.

Actually, I don't believe that autoblocks are 'stupid easy' to set up. I think that it is stupid easy to tie a klemheist or prusik below your device and think that it is an autoblock. However, setting up an autoblock correctly can be tricky.

In a course of a day canyoneering I rap of different size rope, both double and single line. I am proficient in setting up auto-block with different size ropes but only became proficient after some trial and error. An auto-block set up with one rope does not always work with another rope, even if the ropes are same diameter. A soft dynamic rope requires less wraps then a static rope. Also, in some ropes a klemheist with 3 raps around the rope was not enough but four raps caused the autoblock to bind.

Another poster recommended people so some back yard testing to make sure that their setup really work and that you are just slapping a placebo friction hitch below your atc.

After experiencing how fickle auto blocks can be, I am still not sure I would recommend a beginner climber use an autoblock, when they are not skilled or experienced enough to check to see if it has adequate functionality.