Rappel Back-ups

Dylan B. wrote: I'm still waiting for an explanation of this^. Two others have asked, and I haven't seen a reply. In addition to backing up my rappel with a prissik above the ATC, I carry a purcel as a PAS. In the unlikely event that I need to unweight the cinched prussik, I can use the purcel to stand up on the rope and fiddle the prussik loose.

Pretty simple. If it's above your ATC, then it's your primary point of connection to the rope, and the ATC serves as a backup, the ATC isn't going to lock off on its own. Whereas if the prussik is beneath the ATC. It's actually a backup connection as well as the fact that in this position, the prusik pairs with the friction I f the ATC to share your weight if you need to stop mid rapell. On top of that, if we're talking some crazy, catastrophic "climber unconscious/ rappel backup fails" sort of scenario, then the cord itself could wedge itself into the ATC preventing a further decent.

I'm mostly surprised that I even need to explain this.

One needs to take the "always" and "never" statements on here with an appropriate degree of skepticism.

If you use a valdotain tresse as your backup, it works best if it's on the rappel rope above your device.

Marc Marion wrote: Backing up a rap with a friction knot BELOW the device is considered better by some. pros. - the friction knot sees less force when engaged and is easier to disengage - enables both hands to be below the device for more control and safety - the friction knot can be set on the rope first, tested by pulling some slack up though it and then, have it hold the weight of the rope so you can easily load your device. cons - the device must be extended away from the friction knot so they can never touch... as the device can/will disengage the friction knot if it sucked to the device. - may not save you from an improperly loaded device...always test before unhooking your safety. the friction hitch can be an auto-block, klemheist or prussic and can be secured to your leg loop or belay loop.. Some prefer the auto-block as it can be easily wrapped onto the rope to setup and can ooze line out smoothly after engaged for fine adjustment. All setups should be tested on the rope your using to verify that they engage and your device extension is adequate BEFORE you actually need it to work.

A lot of good advice in this thread. I don't think anyone has mentioned a serious potential problem with an extended belay device, viz., that it can hook on the rock above the belayer when going over an overhang. It can be very difficult to free the device as this might require weighting the rope above the device. A couple of years ago, a friend and I were rappelling. I went first on a rappel that had an overhang. When he got to the overhang, his extended device hung up. On that nice warm, sunny and calm day, it only took him 2 or 3 minutes to free the device (but he had to endure my sermonizing that I told you so). Under adverse conditions and rock that does not allow the rappeller to gain some purchase, freeing the device can be a real bear.

rob.calm

rob.calm wrote: A lot of good advice in this thread. I don't think anyone has mentioned a serious potential problem with an extended belay device, viz., that it can hook on the rock above the belayer when going over an overhang. It can be very difficult to free the device as this might require weighting the rope above the device. A couple of years ago, a friend and I were rappelling. I went first on a rappel that had an overhang. When he got to the overhang, his extended device hung up. On that nice warm, sunny and calm day, it only took him 2 or 3 minutes to free the device (but he had to endure my sermonizing that I told you so). Under adverse conditions and rock that does not allow the rappeller to gain some purchase, freeing the device can be a real bear. rob.calm

Why didn't you just grab the rope, fireman's belay style, and swing him out from the overhang?

Paul-B wrote: Why didn't you just grab the rope, fireman's belay style, and swing him out from the overhang?

I would have, if I could have but no way for me to do any such thing. We were a couple of pitches up, and I couldn't move around freely as I was tied in to the next anchor.

r.c

Steve Levin wrote: I see accidents and near-misses as having reasons (i.e. root causes) that they occurred, i.e. I look for the "why", not the "how". That was the point in my earlier post about the canyoneering rap video. When we look at reasons, we can point out fundamental mistakes and perhaps avoid accidents repeating themselves. It is easy to look only so far as the "how" and point blame at techniques, that when applied properly, are sound. The reason that the canyon rap incident occurred is not because the rappeller let go of their brake hand; it happened because the leader of the group entrusted a beginner with a technique they were not experienced at and failed to provide some kind of safety back-up (in this case, a fireman's). Likewise, in the accident in the Pinnacles, the reason the accident occurred is because the "guide" let an inexperienced rappeller go first with a third-hand back-up; the "how" was a stuck friction hitch. In both of these examples, the accidents did not happen because the rappellers were using rap back-ups that did not work or worked too well. These accidents happened because their more-experienced partners made poor decisions: the canyon leader did not provide a fireman's; and the Pinnacles guide sent a client down first with a third-hand back-up instead of belaying them on one strand of their 300-foot rope, which would have been a more sound guiding practice. Of course we should always correctly apply techniques and use equipment properly, but that needs to be learned in a controlled environment. Once a technique is mastered, then it can be applied in the field. That is Climbing 101. That did not happen in these two examples. That is my simple point.

i would disagree

while it is good for the more experienced partner (or any partner for that matter) to do take reasonable precautions to keep their partner safe

it is up to the individual to learn and practice the needed skills and procedures to keep themselves safe

unless its made clear that its a "guiding" session ... the individual bears the responsibility for the decisions they make ... and it is their responsibility to seek "proper" instruction

personally i expect folks to have the basic belaying and rapping skills mastered when i climb with em ... but then im no guide

IMO there is a rush to go out and climb without getting the basics right ... and without practicing em over and over again

O.L.D.S.A.G. wrote:if a PAS is so worthless, why do you own one?

years ago i bought into the metolius marketing koolaid !!!

if someone wants to use a PAS its their call ...

but then so are 20$ pretied prusiks, 50$ premade anchor chains, and 60$ rope bags ... they dont do anything better than something a fraction of the cost will do just as well

it does however seem to be the "in thing" where everyone straight out of the gym "needs" one, at least in squamish

i DO recommend a "PAS" for newer climbers, a 120cm nylon sling girth hitch to the harness with 2 over hand knots ...

rob.calm wrote: A lot of good advice in this thread. I don't think anyone has mentioned a serious potential problem with an extended belay device, viz., that it can hook on the rock above the belayer when going over an overhang. It can be very difficult to free the device as this might require weighting the rope above the device. A couple of years ago, a friend and I were rappelling. I went first on a rappel that had an overhang. When he got to the overhang, his extended device hung up. On that nice warm, sunny and calm day, it only took him 2 or 3 minutes to free the device (but he had to endure my sermonizing that I told you so). Under adverse conditions and rock that does not allow the rappeller to gain some purchase, freeing the device can be a real bear. rob.calm

if you need to re-ascend a rappel (missing the anchors) youll have the same issue ... which is one reason i dont like extending it on an unknown rappel

you can mitigate this by keeping the extension within elbows length ... for you PASers this would be the first girth hitch loop, for those that use a sling tie the first overhand fairly close and clip to that

this allows you enough reach to reach above the device to set a friction knot unweight the device

DONT extend the device beyond or near the end of your arms reach if there is a possibility you may need to re-ascend

At least the PAS provides a safer replacement to the aider. You may not like the PAS, but someone will always want something like it, and thus in the past people were killing themselves using aiders as their personal anchor. (For those unfamiliar, people would clip a second loop to adjust the length, and in so doing the bar tack becomes the only thing holding them)

climbinglife.com/beta/tech-…

bearbreeder wrote: DONT extend the device beyond or near the end of your arms reach

Agreed...great point...use minimal extension to get the job done. Getting your extended device stuck on an overhang is a possibility that you should be aware of...just like loose clothing and hair. I use a half sling, girth hitched and set a tight auto-block on a leg loop.

We typically only use a backup on the first person down...followers are given a firemans belay so they cannot get trapped above. If we are rappelling on a device with a release handle like a grigri or Alpine Up, we also forego the back-up and extension.

ViperScale wrote: You appear completely clueless thought if you think a PAS or any other anchor chain has anything to do with climbing hard. Alot of us out there don't care about climbing hard we just like the adventure and just because you think 0.01 oz of wt will weigh you don't and not allow you to send something... the rest of us climb for fun and it makes no difference. PS: Anyone who talks trash to someone for their choice (when the choice isn't going to hurt them) is a tool.

Let's take your argument at face value.

Can climbing 5.6 on the Kane Route in the Bugaboos feel like the most rad shit ever?

Hell yeah. You want adventure in the most amazing place ever? But you don't care how hard it is? Sweet, why not. It takes a lot of hard work to do even that.

But, honestly, you go and climb that, it's pretty awesome. Sure,

Then you descend and look across the Bugaboo Snowpatch Col and see Sunshine Crack at 5.11, then you look back at what you climbed. Suddenly your adventure lacks something. You realize that you're line was unaesthetic, just a pile of cross. And folks across the way are climbing a splitter KING line,

Climbing harder isn't about ego for most people. It actually lets you experience more adventure if you parlay that into further experiences,

As to the weight added by a PAS, sure, it's not much in and of itself. But that attitude has a cascading effect. A PAS leads to a water purification pump, then to a full on cook set, and "ooh! Hey, I just got a BD lantern, it's sweet, let's bring it!"

If you're carrying in an 80 liter pack, filled to the brim, because of one little thing on top of another kept you from taking in a 52L one, then of course, You're working harder, having less fun, and yeah, not climbing as hard.

bb wrote: "i would disagree

while it is good for the more experienced partner (or any partner for that matter) to do take reasonable precautions to keep their partner safe

it is up to the individual to learn and practice the needed skills and procedures to keep themselves safe

unless its made clear that its a "guiding" session ... the individual bears the responsibility for the decisions they make ... and it is their responsibility to seek "proper" instruction

personally i expect folks to have the basic belaying and rapping skills mastered when i climb with em ... but then im no guide

IMO there is a rush to go out and climb without getting the basics right ... and without practicing em over and over again"

I agree with Steve Levin and disagree with bb's disagreement. We learn to climb from a variety of teaching sources. In most cases, beginning climbers learn from possibly more experienced climbers, who might have learned or developed bad habits and who may exercise poor judgment when setting up rappels for their companions. Even instruction books, catalogs, and Web sites occasionally propagate problematic techniques, such as Petzl's advocacy of extending the rappel device far above the backup Shunt attached to the belay loop. (I agree with bb that extending the rappel device out of easy reach is a BAD idea. I also agree that a Prusik backup attached to the ropes above the rappel device is a BAD idea.) Yes, each of us is ultimately responsible for the choices each of us makes. However, leaders/teachers/mentors/guides have a greater responsibility: to safeguard their innocent companions.

Guides have, over the years, been forced by bad choices to consider different approaches to climbing safety. We've heard of the recent and less-recent guided disasters on Mount Rainier and Everest. I've climbed with AMGA-certified guides, some of whom were eventually killed while climbing and some who were taught some crappy techniques by the AMGA, such as girth-hitching a tether/daisy/PAS directly to the belay loop, instead of through the rope-tie-in path. And some climbing gyms teach belaying with the brake hand out in front, instead of pulling the rope back to the side with it, to brake a fall.

How are beginners to know whether their leaders are setting them up for disaster? The many aspects of climbing require long learning curves that many of us are lucky to have survived. Climbing is like life — there's always more to learn along the way, and what works for one may not for another. A climber may sift through all the info out there, as well as through the comments made herein, and discern what may be the best way to set up a rappel. I applaud Steve for reminding us about what can wrong without a correctly applied rappel backup.

I don't see a ton of cons to the autoblock. But that being said, I rappelled for 10 years without one, without any accidents or situations I felt would merit it, some of this was certainly luck. I only started using it when I rappelled with my dog (an extra 50lbs). From that point on I generally use it more than not, but like knots in the end of a rope, it's a case by case basis.

Generally speaking, for shorter rappels on nylon rope (vs poly or tech fiber, which often binds up), I think the first person off should use a friction hitch, after that, and I do understand the limitations of a fireman's belay, the next rappellers can ask for a fireman's belay. This is less common in climbing but quite common in canyoneering.

For longer rappels in the dark, or where communication is poor, I think it's prudent to add a friction hitch.

It's also a good idea for cleaning gear on rappel or reflaking tangled ropes, even if tie offs might be more secure.

All of this foul discharge about the PAS is misleading. The PAS is much better than a daisy because each loop is runner-strong. It provides quick anchoring and length adjustment. This obnoxious spray reminds me of the bullies who used to dis helmet wear by dictating that only gumbies were interested in protecting the most important part of their bodies.

George Bracksieck wrote:All of this foul discharge about the PAS is misleading. The PAS is much better than a daisy because each loop is runner-strong. It provides quick anchoring and length adjustment. This obnoxious spray reminds me of the emotionally insecure who used to dis helmet wear by dictating that only gumbies were interested in protecting the most important part of their bodies.

Did you think that anyone dissing the PAS was advocating a daisy chain as an alternative? So you have never heard of a clove hitch also?

Or, you know using a sling to anchor yourself in at a rappel.

"But hey, Blueprint Part Dank, what if, you know, you need to bring yourself a few inches closer or further away from something while climbing mountains!!!! And I heard of something called shock loading. It sounds very serious, so I want to avoid that."

I would ask you how magnets work. But you know. Different topic, and I also don't want to be hearing from NO scientists. So I'll instead let you keep on keeping on, and I'll enjoy laughing at you and the 50 feet of cordellete hanging off your harness.

Ya'll are funny.

Started with the dreaded chain a couple years ago. Run the purcell now in the alpine, which works great. Also looking at using a 120cm sling instead, knotted near the halfway point, girth hitched at the harness. Clip-in point, useful to extend rappel if desired. Blah Blah Blah.

Probably the better question is not "should you use something besides the rope to clip in", but "where do you keep it whilst not using?"

I prefer the twisted thong method, personally.

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote:And I heard of something called shock loading. It sounds very serious, so I want to avoid that.

I don't get the mocking of this. Peak loads are high. There is no question there. Neither is there any doubt that a 4-foot fall on static gear will produce high peak forces. Or is there?

Hey bearbreeder - if you don't want that PAS I'll take it. It's the older model that is longer that I like better. I'll PM you my address. Take it off your hands so no one will think you are a noob climber. ;)

Edit - I will pay money for it too if you want to sell it.

Adam Burch wrote: "where do you keep it whilst not using?" I prefer the twisted thong method, personally.

I wrap it around my waist. It goes around once perfectly. It doesn't interfere with getting gear either and stays out of the way.

George Bracksieck wrote:All of this foul discharge about the PAS is misleading. The PAS is much better than a daisy because each loop is runner-strong. It provides quick anchoring and length adjustment. This obnoxious spray reminds me of the bullies who used to dis helmet wear by dictating that only gumbies were interested in protecting the most important part of their bodies.

George you are somewhat correct about the PAS loops being stronger, but thats not the issue with the daisy chain system. Where the DCs were actually breaking is where the DC material meets the carabiner due to the bunching of the material that makes contact with the carabiner. The main issue with the DCs were that they are sometimes made of Spectra that has a much lower melting point than Nylon. The PAS attenuates this by adding more Spectra and nylon in combo in each loop giving it the ability to withstand a higher peak force and more importantly a higher temperature. I personally am a medium purcell guy, but I feel the newer PAS works just fine too. Be safe!!!

Matt

A daisy is a sling closed with runner-strength bar tacking. The many small loops are then created by one or two bar tacks for each loop. (I"m not looking at a daisy now, so I'm not sure how many bar tacks are used to close each small loop.) I recall that the TOTAL strength of the bar tacks creating each of the small loops is only about 300 lbs. (Correct me about this bar-tack strength if I'm wrong.) If a climber were to clip a carabiner into one of those loops and then adjust the daisy's length by clipping the same carabiner into another loop, without removing it from the first loop, the carabiner is no longer clipped to the overall daisy sling. I recall that at least one daisy failed under a small load, with disastrous results. That's why the PAS was invented.

BTW the PAS isn't merely a daisy substitute. It is a convenient choice for many anchor situations.

O.L.D.S.A.G. wrote:Hey bearbreeder - if you don't want that PAS I'll take it. It's the older model that is longer that I like better. I'll PM you my address. Take it off your hands so no one will think you are a noob climber. ;) Edit - I will pay money for it too if you want to sell it.

its retired .... its been used daily for a few years

George Bracksieck wrote: I agree with Steve Levin and disagree with bb's disagreement. We learn to climb from a variety of teaching sources. In most cases, beginning climbers learn from possibly more experienced climbers, who might have learned or developed bad habits and who may exercise poor judgment when setting up rappels for their companions. Even instruction books, catalogs, and Web sites occasionally propagate problematic techniques, such as Petzl's advocacy of extending the rappel device far above the backup Shunt attached to the belay loop. (I agree with bb that extending the rappel device out of easy reach is a BAD idea. I also agree that a Prusik backup attached to the ropes above the rappel device is a BAD idea.) Yes, each of us is ultimately responsible for the choices each of us makes. However, leaders/teachers/mentors/guides have a greater responsibility: to safeguard their innocent companions. Guides have, over the years, been forced by bad choices to consider different approaches to climbing safety. We've heard of the recent and less-recent guided disasters on Mount Rainier and Everest. I've climbed with AMGA-certified guides, some of whom were eventually killed while climbing and some who were taught some crappy techniques by the AMGA, such as girth-hitching a tether/daisy/PAS directly to the belay loop, instead of through the rope-tie-in path. And some climbing gyms teach belaying with the brake hand out in front, instead of pulling the rope back to the side with it, to brake a fall. How are beginners to know whether their leaders are setting them up for disaster? The many aspects of climbing require long learning curves that many of us are lucky to have survived. Climbing is like life — there's always more to learn along the way, and what works for one may not for another. A climber may sift through all the info out there, as well as through the comments made herein, and discern what may be the best way to set up a rappel. I applaud Steve for reminding us about what can wrong without a correctly applied rappel backup.

i want to make this quite clear ...

unless one asks someone specifically to be "guided" or to learn the basics ... the final responsibility of your own safety is in YOUR hands

while a "good parter" should always look out for the safety of their partners, its not always possible to give fireman belays, mistakes get made, even the best folks have judgement errors

you must insure your own safety through the practice of skills and proper procedures whenever possible

this absolute includes testing and weighting you rap setup, including the backup, EVERYTIME you rap ... or a double visual check if its not possible

ive had plenty of good partners ... but then ive had a few that lacked the basic technical skills, or didnt practice them enough, even though they climbed quite hard (including a "sponsored" climber who couldnt setup a rappel)

it is YOUR responsibility to seek out that instruction and insure you develop or learn systems to keep you safe

if you dont have the ability, let your partner know this before time ... so he can tone down the scale or level of the route as hell be playing guide, which many climber dont enjoy doing (nor do many have the self rescue skills to safely do so)

as to PASes ... the PAS is no safer than a nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... and in fact may be theoretically more dangerous if you believe in the deadly dyneema thing