Ethics behind retro bolting how far do they go?

Firstly, I would like to mention that I am not considering retro bolting a climb, the purpose of this topic is to create a discussion with the climbing community on this topic that I see come up so often in different articles and forums. I have only been climbing for about 4 years now and still have plenty to learn about the sport which is why I hoping to get some helpful feedback here.

My current understanding for the rules of retro bolting is that if someone wants to add any type of fixed protection to a already established climb, it is their responsibility to first contact the individual who completed the first ascent of said climb and get their "permission". At which point, it is now the responsibility of the climber wanting to add protection to respect the wishes of the first ascensionist or get verbally, and possibly physically, flogged by their climbing peers.

Now the hypothetical situation; What if there was a ultra classic multi-pitch climb up a very popular face, we'll say El Cap, at around 12.c/d. What if the first ascensionist happened to free solo the entire climb leaving zero fixed protection and believed that the established route was meant to only be completed in that same exact fashion from then on.

While there are those out there that can free solo thousand foot cliffs at 12.c/d, I think its fair to say that is out of the range of most peoples levels of comfort. So at this point, does the climbing community just accept the first ascensionists wishes and move on having only few people in history be able to ever attempt said climb, or does the value of placing APPROPRIATE protection out weight the first ascensionsist's wishes?

Again this is an extreme hypothetical situation to try see how deep the ethics behind this tradition really go. Does the willingness and ability of someone to put up a route and get a first ascent allow them to have, some could say, a type of ownership over "their" route? Or is there a point where the enjoyment of a route from the entire climbing community out weighs one persons wishes?

Thanks in advance for participating,

Tyler

i'm more worried about descentionists who use Wing Suits, think about it, 27 Pitches 5.12b, FD Wingsuit, now you gotta lug all that crap up there... I mean what are these guys thinking

Just keep some perspective and have a life other than being a climber. You will find that these issues matter the most to childish little bitches, pretentious trust funders, Yuppy scum, and old washed up supertopo douche bags.

I don't agree with the previous post because ethics are what help preserve climbing areas and keep each destination unique. This thread however is like beating a dead horse. Look at Super Pin in the Black Hills of SD for example. Someone retro bolted a classic line and many years later the FA found out and chopped it. The way a line gets climbed is the way it should stay. I also just read an article by Cedar Wright about a line him and Sean Leary put up. One of the pitches was a super long 5.10+, Sean soloed it and didn't place any gear. I'm sure the route is stellar but I'm sure has hell not soloing hard 5.10 slab anytime soon.

Wilson On The Drums wrote:I don't agree with the previous post because ethics are what help preserve climbing areas and keep each destination unique. This thread however is like beating a dead horse. Look at Super Pin in the Black Hills of SD for example. Someone retro bolted a classic line and many years later the FA found out and chopped it. The way a line gets climbed is the way it should stay. I also just read an article by Cedar Wright about a line him and Sean Leary put up. One of the pitches was a super long 5.10+, Sean soloed it and didn't place any gear. I'm sure the route is stellar but I'm sure has hell not soloing hard 5.10 slab anytime soon.

I agree about the "beating a dead horse" comment, while this is not my purpose here I can see how some, if not most, could feel this way. My point in bringing this is up with such an extreme hypothetical situation is to see how deep these ethics go.

I am all for keeping traditions and preserving culture and I can appreciate arguments on both sides with this topic, but we live in such a different time now from when the sport was first being cultivated that I thought it was an interesting question to raise.

So Wilson, are you on the side that there is no exception at all when the first ascensionist sets a route? Lets get really wild and say that all the first climbers were free soloists just because they wanted to be and they personally didn't want things to change. Does that mean if you would want to be a rock climber today you would have to learn have to free solo?

OK, Ill bite.....

Don't retrobolt... not all climbs are for "all climbers" ....

go find your own lines and do your own thing... but dont modify climbs.

Traditional ethics wouldn't require you to also free solo your hypothetical climb. The only issue would be if you added fixed protection. Place all the removable gear you want and no one would take issue, even if the F.A. was a free solo.

How far do the "ethics" go?

As far an individual person is willing to make them go through actual behavior.

If top roping is out of the hypothetical question, and if it's not protectable by nuts/cams, then yes, soloing it is. Some of the best times I've had have been while soloing protectable and non-protectable routes.

Interesting feedback so far, thanks for the responses up to this point.

• Jeff - the hypothetical situation I was envisioning would have very little traditions options for removable gear, my bad for leaving that out. With that said, I like what you said as far as not needing to complete the climb in the same fashion (soloing vs removable protection) but just simply respecting the use of no fixed protection.
• Wilson - good on ya for having the mental/physical ability to free-solo, I honestly think that that would be the coolest and purest way to climb. Too bad I'm way to much of a wuss to commit to that.

When I first started climbing I guess I wrongly assumed that people would put up routes with the intention of others being able to enjoy it safely as a community. But it almost seems like the wild west with the first person who gets to the land can claim it and say what the laws are, or a really intense game of horse ha (this is simply an observation and I am sure will be corrected here shortly).

tsaint wrote:Interesting feedback so far, thanks for the responses up to this point. *Jeff - the hypothetical situation I was envisioning would have very little traditions options for removable gear, my bad for leaving that out. With that said, I like what you said as far as not needing to complete the climb in the same fashion (soloing vs removable protection) but just simply respecting the use of no fixed protection. *Wilson - good on ya for having the mental/physical ability to free-solo, I honestly think that that would be the coolest and purest way to climb. Too bad I'm way to much of a wuss to commit to that. When I first started climbing I guess I wrongly assumed that people would put up routes with the intention of others being able to enjoy it safely as a community. But it almost seems like the wild west with the first person who gets to the land can claim it and say what the laws are, or a really intense game of horse ha (this is simply an observation and I am sure will be corrected here shortly).

Your hypothetical situation exists: It's called Southern Belle. You can read all about it here

Please don't retro-bolt it.

nkane wrote: Your hypothetical situation exists: It's called Southern Belle. You can read all about it here Please don't retro-bolt it.

Sweet, I'll check this out.

Just a note of clarification, I am not planning on retro-bolting anything...or really bolting anything for that matter, just creating a conversation (in case your comment was directed at me and not everyone in general).

Not to change the topic but I think a more practical question is:
If the FA party has passed away, does the question of adding fixed gear now go to the local community, or does the climb stay unchanged for the rest of eternity. What about routes put up by people who would have otherwise bolted it but didn't have the money?

eli poss wrote:Not to change the topic but I think a more practical question is: If the FA party has passed away, does the question of adding fixed gear now go to the local community, or does the climb stay unchanged for the rest of eternity. What about routes put up by people who would have otherwise bolted it but didn't have the money?

Yes! this was another question of mine, glad you asked. Or just even alive but MIA, no possible way to make contact with the FA'er.

The point you bring up with the money issue is really interesting too, would these first climbers have done things differently if they had the tools and technology we do today? I think there will definitely be people on both sides of that argument, but I think its an important variable.

eli poss wrote:Not to change the topic but I think a more practical question is: If the FA party has passed away, does the question of adding fixed gear now go to the local community, or does the climb stay unchanged for the rest of eternity. What about routes put up by people who would have otherwise bolted it but didn't have the money?

No one lives forever..... "The Edge" at Taquitz is a monument to one of the boldest rockclimbers ever.

Please don't think that because he is passed on, YOU can man up and make it a sport climb.

Let me ask you this.

Do YOU have the right to climb every climb?

and

Do YOU really think that climbs are put up for the good of the climbing community?

and

Do you view the world as one big gym?

Just asking, please think about it.

And to the money/ tech issue.... if the electric drill was around in 1965... there would be more bolts on climbs. The time it would take to hand drill was always figgured into the question. To drill here or keep going?

NOT AGAIN! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
if yah retra bult, yer pretty much gunna die...

I believe the rule is that you can retro bolt anything you want as long as it's with ClimbX hangers. MP forum says they will break anyway. Please camo though. And if the FA used Camalot X4's with bent stems then repeat ascents cannot use anything other than equally compromised gear.

Guy Keesee wrote: No one lives forever..... "The Edge" at Taquitz is a monument to one of the boldest rockclimbers ever. Please don't think that because he is passed on, YOU can man up and make it a sport climb. Let me ask you this. Do YOU have the right to climb every climb? and Do YOU really think that climbs are put up for the good of the climbing community? and Do you view the world as one big gym? Just asking, please think about it. And to the money/ tech issue.... if the electric drill was around in 1965... there would be more bolts on climbs. The time it would take to hand drill was always figgured into the question. To drill here or keep going?

Can I first address the "YOU"'s, to reiterate what I have already stated a few times on this post, I do not plan on retro bolting anything. The purpose behind this question is to gain insight on how the climbing community as a whole feels about this subject. I know people are very passionate about this subject and I can understand why, which is why I presented a hypothetical situation while stating that I had no intention to retro-bolt, or to even bolt anything new for that matter. I am simply interested in learning about the different perspectives and reasonings to people opinions in regards to this subject.

In regards to the bolting lines of those who passed, I, nor did anyone on here, insinuated that we were planning on bolting said lines, but merely asking the community what their thoughts were on the subject.

In regards to your question about whether or not I feel that I have the right to climb EVERY climb. As a human on this planet, yes I feel like I have the "right" to enjoy nature just as much as anyone else. Does that mean that I would have the strength, nerve, willingness, skill to climb every climb, definitely not. While I wish I had that skill level I am also a realist in knowing that that will probably never be my reality, but as far as the right, definitely.

I did use to think that people put up climbs so that everyone could enjoy them, cause in my mind, if I were to find an awesome route that no one had done and that I had the ability to achieve first ascent, I would most definitely want to be able to have others enjoy it as well. I think its actually quite selfish to create a line with the intent or purpose of others not being able to do it, in a sense saying, because of my skill and awesome ability, I henceforth ban anyone lesser than I to enjoy this part of nature! It seems a little strange that that could even be a reality in a sport that so heavily respects nature and the right to enjoy it. With that said if I were to ever put up a route, it would be done so in respect to nature, the rock, the area, local community and climbing community.

I don't want to mis interpret your question about the world being one big climbing gym cause that could be taken many ways. if you meant a place where anyone and everyone can go out and enjoy then yes; if you mean over crowded routes with bolts 4 feet a part then no. If you meant something completely different then ... I can't say.

Hope that answers your questions.

SeanPeter2 wrote:I believe the rule is that you can retro bolt anything you want as long as it's with ClimbX hangers. MP forum says they will break anyway. Please camo though. And if the FA used Camalot X4's with bent stems then repeat ascents cannot use anything other than equally compromised gear.

Finally, a post that I can actually get on board with.

tsaint you're all over the place man... just relax and enjoy climbing. you know you've opened up a can of worms just no ones playing the game with you, you're beating yourself.

If you want to gain perspective, try to not ask the internet. Ask a more experienced local climber at your crag.. Or for some reading material, maybe pick a copy of Chip Lee's biography on Henry Barber's Life and Climbs...... you'll find many of the answers and philosophy it seems your longing for on "pure climbing" ethics and opinions. and maybe even feel that enlightenment of understanding.. something the dark portal of online forum banter will never be able to conclude for you.

Either way, always a good laugh seeing some of the crap people post into these threads... myself and this post included

D

Derek Jf wrote:tsaint you're all over the place man... just relax and enjoy climbing. you know you've opened up a can of worms just no ones playing the game with you, you're beating yourself. If you want to gain perspective, try to not ask the internet. Ask a more experienced local climber at your crag.. Or for some reading material, maybe pick a copy of Chip Lee's biography on Henry Barber's Life and Climbs...... you'll find many of the answers and philosophy it seems your longing for on "pure climbing" ethics and opinions. and maybe even feel that enlightenment of understanding.. something the dark portal of online forum banter will never be able to conclude for you. Either way, always a good laugh seeing some of the crap people post into these threads... myself and this post included D

I like your style, I indeed do enjoy climbing and it is my plan to continue to do so, whatever comes from this thread will not change that in the slightest.. And I couldn't agree more about the ridiculousness of online forums and I seriously contemplated whether or not it was even worth it to come one here and post a topic hoping for an even keeled discussion, yet here I am.

My reason for actually deciding to post this, as ill advised as it may be, is because I get really interested to learn about peoples perspectives on things like this that many are so passionate about. It seems like there is controversy over this subject everywhere you turn in climbing and so as someone less seasoned than others and naturally fascinated by peoples passions, I was intrigued. So it is not so much that I am looking for guidance in my own climbing life (pretty laid back on this end) as much as I am enjoying learning about the reasoning behind others.

I actually have brought this up with some of the more experienced climbers at my local crags and have got mixed opinions but being somewhat of a statistician, I wanted to get a larger sample from other parts of the world in order to get a better feel for the subject. Maybe it was poor judgment to think that that could be accomplished here on MP but given that I don't really have many other options to hear such a variety of opinions it was really my only choice.

I do appreciate your comment and suggestions though, as for the other, less productive comments, they are easy to ignore. Cheers and happy climbing.