sliding X

Patrick Shyvers wrote: Ah, I missed when you said you were going to do that. It should self-equalize better than the sliding X, for sure. If it was me I'd probably still use a masterpoint and if I was really concerned about off-axis falls, include a piece somewhere as a redirect, but the equalette should do you fine.

yeah i would do that however the only reason im TRing it is because it isn't really protect-able with gear as its a slab. there may be a few placements for ballnuts and micro-cams but i don't have that gear and i really wouldn't want to fall on anything smaller than a .5 TCU, much less a #00 TCU or smaller. i would take a fall on a well place ballnut but i don't really have $35 to shell out on a single piece of specialty gear.

eli poss wrote: and where i am from, the ethics go that on multi-pitch climbs, you build a gear anchor at the belay if possible and only use the belay anchor as a rap station. its the same ethic that causes us to TR through slings or draws rather than directly through quicklinks/rap rings. plus, considering most of the development was done in the 60s and 70s, many belay anchors are too sketchy to use as belay anchors and are used only as rap stations.

Where do you climb? I used to live in the SE and everywhere I climbed there was either a) no bolted anchors, so you had to build one with gear or b) bolted anchors, which were usually pretty bomber.

If the bolts were mank then sure I can see backing them up and/or building a separate anchor but not using bolted belays to save wear on the bolts? I'm not saying you're wrong I've just never heard of that and would be interested to know where it comes from.

Ryan Watts wrote: Where do you climb? I used to live in the SE and everywhere I climbed there was either a) no bolted anchors, so you had to build one with gear or b) bolted anchors, which were usually pretty bomber. If the bolts were mank then sure I can see backing them up and/or building a separate anchor but not using bolted belays to save wear on the bolts? I'm not saying you're wrong I've just never heard of that and would be interested to know where it comes from.

i am from the SE but i go to boarding school in Durango CO and it was there that i actually started climbing. my multi-pitch experience is all in Durango, mostly at East A

Who the fuck taught you these ethics in Durango? You've spent time at east a and have never heard of a multipitch sport route? Maybe stick to x rock for a while

Wow... this has escalated quickly!

There really is not any reason to go into any detail about anchors, for everyone's responses have some application in the real world.

The best advice has already been given - read some books and find a mentor to reinforce what you have read and what your own theories may suggest. Learn for yourself what to trust and how to accomplish a safe/efficient system that will assist you in whatever situation you find yourself. Then practice it. :)

It can be difficult for advice to be correctly applied when the environment has only been given in a written form. There are general guidelines to follow, but these can also change depending on what is needed or available at the time.

Maybe some pictures of the specific situation would help?

If you have spent money and personal time on this recreation and you are passionate about it... what is it to spend at least a day with someone competent and a little more money to make sure you know what to do and how to be safe?

Your job as a climber should be to always learn and improve yourself, and to know how and when to apply these systems.

Kudos to you for asking a question on this site, but be aware everyone's risk tolerance is different.

You're responsible for anyone that climbs with you... including yourself. This is true even when climbing with someone better than yourself.

I don't believe anyone is trying to give the OP a hard time - understand you are on a rock climbing forum that has multiple A-type personalities. Comes with the territory. :)

As was said upthread, using a directional piece or 2 on the face itself sounds like your best option here. Or just get ready to take a little pendulum. If it's a slab just run sideways~!

I'd honestly be more scared if I were using a sliding x that was running over the lip like you said, since if you do fall, you'll probably still swing a little bit and scrape the anchor material sideways across the lip as it equalizes, potentially cutting it and causing your anchor to fail. If the sliding x is just a little one up by the anchor, it wouldn't rub but it also wouldn't change direction that much anyway so it wouldn't really be needed. I apologize if I mischaracterized the setup you are trying to achieve.

I usually choose equalized and not extending, over self-equalizing with the potential for extension. You can't have both.

Hiring a guide is probably the best idea, it sounds like you are beginning to want to explore more as a climber and learn new things, and the guide will have a wealth of knowledge you can absorb

eli poss wrote: of course i know how to tie a masterpoint... it's the most simple anchor set-up in existence. i just don't know how to tie a master point designed for an off-axis fall because that simply isn't possible. you don't fucking know me so how the hell do you expect to know what i do and don't know. if you took the time to read the whole thread you would have seen multiple points where which i stated i know how to tie a master point, both as an overhand in a bight and a figure 8 in a bight. i really don't appreciate you assuming that i don't know the simplest of anchor-setups. and no i have never lead a multi-pitch route but i have followed on a few and my mentor does a lot of multi-pitch climbing. and do you not realize that ethics change between areas. so before you go ranting about my stupidity you should get to know me because if you did, your mistake would be quite obvious. and where i climb, gear anchors are much more trustworthy than the belay anchors already in place (they are mostly 40+ yr old compression bolts or fixed pins) so we use gear instead and leave the intermediate anchors as rap stations. some fucking people on MP. can we not just have a friendly discussion about physics involved in anchors without some dumb-fuck assuming shit and pissing people off?!

Yadda yadda yadda

If you need help setting up basic TR anchors from intraweb forums

You need to seek professional or experienced instruction

Or at the very least read up sources that are recognized such as climbing anchoring books

Go learn how to tie a masterpoint properly and do it over and over again before setting it for others

Before setting up a TR you should have no hesitation about its safety ... If you do get someone to check it out

A real live person ... You wouldnt learn how to drive or rig a parachute off an intraweb forums would you now? ... Certainly not without someone checking it first

You have a "mentor" they should be able to answer and show you how in real life

;)

I would try to set up the TR with a masterpoint that is fixed (laterally) in place. If you were to fall, the force would likely equalize better than a sliding x.

The easiest way to do this is with gear as a directional (as others have said). However, you said there really isn't any gear/you wouldn't trust it; but the force on a directional will be much less than a leader fall, so it doesn't have to be a great placement. Aside from a gear directional, you could try using static rope/cordelette/webbing to tie off the anchor point to a anything solid that is in the opposite direction of the anticipated swing, just make sure that there is a small amount of extra slack so that when the anchor is weighted directly vertically, all of the tension is on the slings attached to the intended anchor pieces.

Probably the simplest idea is to have the masterpoint extended just over the edge with a buddy (in direct to something at the top) sitting/standing on the two slings. If there is enough contact with rock/the edge of the cliff, friction would probably be enough to keep the masterpoint in place. Use judgement in padding the edge for this...

These ideas are based on very little information and mostly theoretical but I thought they could be useful and possibly get you on the right track. Maybe test some of the redneck setups on more solid anchors first and see how they do...

bearbreeder wrote: Yadda yadda yadda If you need help setting up basic TR anchors from intraweb forums You need to seek professional or experienced instruction Or at the very least read up sources that are recognized such as climbing anchoring books Go learn how to tie a masterpoint properly and do it over and over again before setting it for others Before setting up a TR you should have no hesitation about its safety ... If you do get someone to check it out A real live person ... You wouldnt learn how to drive or rig a parachute off an intraweb forums would you now? ... Certainly not without someone checking it first You have a "mentor" they should be able to answer and show you how in real life ;)

for the last fucking time you fucking retard i know how to tie a masterpoint. and my mentor is in CO at a the boarding school i go to and this climb is in TN where i live. and besides, if you need to hire a guide to show you how to tie a masterpoint, you probably lack the intelligence and common sense to be climbing in the first place. hell, even MP, of all places, has videos showing people how to tie a masterpoint.

I can't comprehend why this thread has gone on for so long when it's obvious that it's either a troll or a person who is confused and unwilling to listen to information that would help that confusion. Either way, it's a waste of time.

CSG wrote:I would try to set up the TR with a masterpoint that is fixed (laterally) in place. If you were to fall, the force would likely equalize better than a sliding x. The easiest way to do this is with gear as a directional (as others have said). However, you said there really isn't any gear/you wouldn't trust it; but the force on a directional will be much less than a leader fall, so it doesn't have to be a great placement. Aside from a gear directional, you could try using static rope/cordelette/webbing to tie off the anchor point to a anything solid that is in the opposite direction of the anticipated swing, just make sure that there is a small amount of extra slack so that when the anchor is weighted directly vertically, all of the tension is on the slings attached to the intended anchor pieces. Probably the simplest idea is to have the masterpoint extended just over the edge with a buddy (in direct to something at the top) sitting/standing on the two slings. If there is enough contact with rock/the edge of the cliff, friction would probably be enough to keep the masterpoint in place. Use judgement in padding the edge for this... These ideas are based on very little information and mostly theoretical but I thought they could be useful and possibly get you on the right track. Maybe test some of the redneck setups on more solid anchors first and see how they do...

i'll see if there is anything i can tie off to in the opposite direction, but if my memory serves me correctly there is not. thank you for actually adding something productive to the conversation rather than just spewing shit off a high horse. good to know there are other climbers out there who aren't self-absorbed douches

eli poss wrote: for the last fucking time you fucking retard i know how to tie a masterpoint. and my mentor is in CO at a the boarding school i go to and this climb is in TN where i live. and besides, if you need to hire a guide to show you how to tie a masterpoint, you probably lack the intelligence and common sense to be climbing in the first place. hell, even MP, of all places, has videos showing people how to tie a masterpoint.

Thats a lot of swear words for a new climber

Perhaps you should email yr mentor or phone him/her up

At least you know his/her experience

And seek out a new mentor rather than seek online forum "mentorship" through intraweb learning

A good experienced and safe person can easily show you how to set up TRs safely in a few hours

There are many avenues including alpine clubs, asking folks in real life, and yes guides

I suggest those options rather than swearing, declaring youre not confident enough to tie a masterpoint then claiming you know how, spouting about multi pitch ethics when you dont lead multi

Etc ...

Start yr reading here ... Or u can argue about god knows what

rescuedynamics.ca/articles/…

TR anchors !!! A MP special !!!

;)

To the both of you, there's no such thing as winning a flame war.

Eli, just ignore him.

bearbreeder, if you disdain him so much, why are you wasting your time to reply?

Patrick Shyvers wrote:To the both of you, there's no such thing as winning a flame war. Eli, just ignore him. bearbreeder, if you disdain him so much, why are you wasting your time to reply?

Its MP!!!

I dont know how to tie a masterpoint properly but i know multipitch "ethics" !!!

If one is going to set up TR anchors which your partners will presumably climb on ... Make SURE you know what you are doing ... No if and or buts

If theres any uncertainty, and there was plenty with the OP, admit it and get a real LIVE experienced safe person to check it and show you

As a newb one should be climbing with mor experienced folks if one needs to ask how to setup basic TR anchors on an intraweb forum

Otherwise as the most "experienced" person you are the blind leading the blind and putting others at risk

;)