proposing (yet another) new ethics rule - Not Leaving More Ropes than Climbers Up

Jake Jones wrote:I don't know that this is a "new" rule. You know, some people are just not inundated into the proper or let's say "typical" customs and courtesies that most of us are used to. Be careful about your unyielding set of rules. You may one day find yourself having fun introducing others to the sport and you may also find yourself leaving a rope up unknowingly, and some young, strong, whippersnappers will walk by you giving you and your party dirty looks for some reason unknown to you. I've pulled ropes when I couldn't find the owner nearby. I've asked nicely to use a rope that's up (although I try not to if I can't see the anchor). I've lent out gear. Maybe it's just a southeast thing, but I generally find people to be really accommodating, and I try to be as well. I can only remember one time where I really wanted to get on a classic route that was being gang top-roped for hours on end. I just shrugged and left it for another day. There's too much shit in life that we can't control that stresses us out. This doesn't fall under that category for me. I can control if I get bent out of shape over people that are ignorant and/or inconsiderate. I choose not to. YMMV.

This is also directed at NorCalNomad

Guys, I know I can talk to them. I do. (For the love of Darwin, can we not read to the end of my post?) But it has suddenly started happening more than is normal, so my goal by posting this was that maybe one or two people who do this would read this and maybe think again next time they are leaving their ropes all over the place. I don't think asking for a little common courtesy to other climbers when your out at the crag is an unyielding set of rules, but maybe that just because I try to be nice and considerate when I'm out climbing. But I pick up my dogs poop, am generally talkative and friendly when I'm on the crag, and happily lend a helping hand. I also clean up my stuff and try to stay out of other peoples way. I pay my taxes, go to work, the whole nine yards. Maybe I just don't have enough ropes that I can leave them laying around without realizing it.

Mark E. Dixon - why are we suddenly bringing me into your issues with ChefMattThaner? We are separate entities....also, looks to me like ChefMatt has repeatedly offered to meet you in person, you're the one coming up with excuses now that it has been made a real possibility. Anytime you are out in Denver, I'm happy to sit down and discuss our ethical differences over a beer.

Michael Sullivan wrote:This should probably be moved to your regional forum. I agree with you though, people forget these things sometimes and it can be a bit of an irritation. Sadly, people will always need to be reminded. Ultimately everyone's at the crag to have a good time so I wouldn't sweat it too much (climbers are pretty approachable folks).

You are probably right. I do think its a good reminder about being considerate to the others in the public space we are using, everywhere though.

Beth, I think they are guides who leave the ropes like that. We went climbing at North table and witnessed that too. Grant it, that place is a low grade gym for college students and boy scouts, so we only go there in the winter. If you see a guide with clients hogging a crag area ask him politely to either share or pull. If they become nasty then just do something embarrassing so their clients will feel uncomfortable and hopefully leave....just a suggestion. Maybe fart around them or something?

BethHux wrote: Mark E. Dixon - why are we suddenly bringing me into your issues with ChefMattThaner? We are separate entities....also, looks to me like ChefMatt has repeatedly offered to meet you in person, you're the one coming up with excuses now that it has been made a real possibility. Anytime you are out in Denver, I'm happy to sit down and discuss our ethical differences over a beer.

Beth, I thought Matt was your boyfriend and assumed you guys climbed together. If i'm wrong on either count, feel free to correct me. Even if true, I shouldn't lump you together.

I appreciated Matt's offer and thought it was pretty decent of him. However, if I'm not working, then evenings and weekends are for the family and weekdays are for climbing. So driving to Denver isn't really in the cards. But maybe we will meet at the crag sometime- I promise not to hang a bunch of topropes all over the place!

So what did they say when you asked them to pull the ropes (or whatever you said to them)?

BethHux wrote:Guys, I know I can talk to them. I do. (For the love of Darwin, can we not read to the end of my post?) But it has suddenly started happening more than is normal, so my goal by posting this was that maybe one or two people who do this would read this and maybe think again next time they are leaving their ropes all over the place.

Your profile says you started climbed in 2011. I'm not sure you know what "normal" is yet. That's not an insult. You should just consider that some people have been climbing for 20-30 years, occasionally more.

I've been in your situation a few times. IME, the people that hung the ropes are guides and their group is not far, usually within sight. In that case I ask them if they're about to use the rope hanging on the route we want to climb. Sometimes they say "yes," sometimes "no." If the answer is "no," it's usually followed up by "you're welcome to use our rope to TR the route." If I want to lead the route I ask if that's cool with them. They almost always agree. If they don't, I pull their rope and climb on my own rope. On the rare occasion they have something to say at that point, I tell them to "fuck off and have a nice day."

You need to be assertive in this sport. You need to be able to communicate with other climbers out at the crag, but not just your partner(s). 99% of the people you meet at crags are accommodating and respectful. The other 1% you tell to fuck off and do what you will.

Beth wrote:I don't think asking for a little common courtesy to other climbers when your out at the crag is an unyielding set of rules, but maybe that just because I try to be nice and considerate when I'm out climbing.

Large groups usually get to the crags early, set up their ropes, and hope that no one else shows up. When other people show up, a good guide will ask what you're looking to climb and accommodate you whenever possible. A poor guide doesn't and needs to get a lesson in ethics. You can give them a lesson in front of their students (my favorite tactic), or you can come complain about him/her on MP.com.

Beth wrote:I'm generally talkative and friendly when I'm on the crag..

This can go a long way with not only guides but other independent climbers. Especially considering you're a woman, people will be a lot more friendly towards you. If you expect everyone to know what you're looking to climb, you're going to be very disappointed. But if you're assertive and friendly with others, they'll usually reciprocate. If they aren't...then you don't be either.

Marc H wrote: Especially considering you're a woman...

ruh-roh...

I'm with you Beth, this drives me bonkers (as long as I'm keeping with the Scooby Doo theme)

Eric Mountford wrote:."Especially considering you're a woman"........What the fuck does that mean?!??!?!?!?

It means she should be super stoked when this happens.

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mans…

If you have an uncommonly large footprint at the crag for whatever reason you should be bending over backwards to tell anyone and everyone who approaches that you're willing to accommodate them in whatever way they need. 5 ropes up? Offer to pull whatever one they want. Playing music? Offer to turn it down/off. Courtesy begets courtesy.

Let me first just say that when I checked this thread this morning, I had no idea where it was going to go. I'm going to address everyone's response progressively who has not been thoroughly addressed.

Mark E. Dixon, yes you are correct. But we definitely don't sanction everything the other has said though and you know I'm not in even half the threads he is in. Thank you though. Just don't leave it there if you aren't about to use it. ;-)

Ryan - They said they would pull the rope. That's not really my point though. This about being aware of other climbers at the crag and your impact on them. Besides, I'm kind of a control freak, but I wouldn't actually want to climb on their rope. Gym ropes sketch me out a bit.

Marc H - I don't have any actual qualms with the intended content of your post, but thank you for the unnecessary attempt to educate me. The ageism and sexism on this website are one of the main reason I don't post overly much. Thank you for the mansplanation.(Thanks Jonas for the new word! It's perfect!)I know we can always discount my opinion because I'm younger and have those pesky ladybits. (That last sentence is sarcasm.)But seriously, are you concerned that I'm not assertive enough? My hope, as I previously stated, is that by making a post about considerate climbing behavior that some people who maybe hadn't thought how their behavior impacts others will give a little more thought to the community. I think the main reason that I am seeing a perceived increase in groups leaving excessive top ropes up is that there are more new climbers out and about with the weather getting all warm and what not. I think this website is particularly attractive to new climbers for the route finding features, so it seems like a good venue to help remind them of climbing etiquette. I'm sure the group of predominantly female climbers that I was dealing with in my most recent example really cared about my being a woman as well.

Eric Mountford - Thank you. You said everything I think needs to be said.

David Peterson - Wanna go pull the masks off bad guys and eat scooby snacks?

Jonas Salk - I have needed a word for this. Thank you.

Greg DeMatteo - +1. Yes.

An easy solution to deal with others when they hog routes with unused ropes blocking multiple routes is to just PULL THEM!
That should send the right message.

Eric Mountford wrote:She's not a wimpering ninny who isn't afraid to speak up for herself. She's not incapable of being diplomatic when talking to people. She's also not out of line in saying it's rude to hang a lot of ropes to claim routes.

I never claimed she was anything close to a "whimpering ninny." But she did say "Yes, I know I could just ask them to pull it, and you better believe I will, but I don't think that should be necessary." That to me implies pacifism, which isn't helpful in the world of cragging.

Yes, she's welcome to post what I'm sure she views as a PSA here on MP.com, but how helpful do you really think that's going to be? More helpful than just saying, "Hey, mind if I pull your rope that you're not currently using so I can climb this route?

Eric wrote:And she's not off base to say that it puts the burden on the walk up climber to walk around the cliff asking every person encountered if that's their route and oh please is it ok with you if I climb the route too. Please note dripping sarcasm.

BethHux wrote:I was at a very small crag (about 10 routes, both sport and trad)

There probably wasn't a whole lot of walking around going on. Dripping sarcasm noted though.

Eric wrote:Unfortunately, with climbing becoming a main stream sport and guiding big business, this is probably going to be an increasing problem. So my advice is either realize the situation and prepare yourself to deal with it or go to areas where there aren't so many people.

ie Don't be afraid to be assertive? Asking someone if it's ok to run a TR lap or pull their rope really isn't that much of an inconvenience. But it you really feel that it is, I don't think you'd be completely out of line to just pull a rope that's not being used at the moment. However, I think doing that without first asking is making you more "rude and obnoxious" than the person that hung the line initially.

Eric wrote:In summary: Yes setting up a bunch of routes is rude, and yes, people are rude sometimes, and going further down the cliff or a less popular area remedy this.

I guess you missed it, but this is the entire point of my post. People are sometimes rude; being passive is not the best way to deal with rudeness. You will never get what you want that way.

Eric wrote:Oh one more thing Mark...."Especially considering you're a woman"........What the fuck does that mean?!??!?!?!?

It means that human nature is a factor in dealing human interactions. When I've gotten a flat tire, no one has ever stopped to offer me a hand. But I see it quite regularly with women on the side of the the road. When I go out with my guy friends, people don't generally offer to buy me drinks. But when my girlfriend goes to LoDo with her girlfriends, guys are always offering to buy her drinks. This is not because women are incapable of changing their own tires or affording their own drinks; it's because men like the opportunity to talk to women. It has nothing to do with sexism; it has everything to do with human relations in modern-day society.

Your political correctness is misplaced here.

BethHux wrote:Marc H - I don't have any actual qualms with the intended content of your post, but thank you for the unnecessary attempt to educate me. The ageism and sexism on this website are one of the main reason I don't post overly much.

I'm glad you could see through my imperfect delivery to see the content of my message. However, my post has nothing to do with ageism or sexism; please see last paragraph directed at Eric.

Beth wrote:I know we can always discount my opinion because I'm younger and have those pesky ladybits.

I'm not trying to discount your opinion. I'm trying to give you more info to help you further shape it. As we all climb longer, our opinions evolve. Mine certainly have in the past 20 years. As a heterosexual male, I never think "ladybits" are pesky. Nor did I imply that I thought they were.

Beth wrote:My hope, as I previously stated, is that by making a post about considerate climbing behavior that some people who maybe hadn't thought how their behavior impacts others will give a little more thought to the community. I think the main reason that I am seeing a perceived increase in groups leaving excessive top ropes up is that there are more new climbers out and about with the weather getting all warm and what not. I think this website is particularly attractive to new climbers for the route finding features, so it seems like a good venue to help remind them of climbing etiquette.

It's usually not the new climbers that have the equipment and knowledge to hang a bunch of ropes. It's usually organized groups headed by a guide/group leader/top-rope-site manager/whatever they're calling them these days.

Beth wrote:I'm sure the group of predominantly female climbers that I was dealing with in my most recent example really cared about my being a woman as well.

Who knows. Maybe they prefer "ladybits." (I hope you didn't expect me to not join the sarcasm party at some point.)

Beth wrote:They said they would pull the rope. That's not really my point though. This about being aware of other climbers at the crag and your impact on them. Besides, I'm kind of a control freak, but I wouldn't actually want to climb on their rope.

Just saw this. So you did (presumably) politely ask if you could pull their ropes and they obliged? But you still felt the need to post a PSA that called that group "obnoxious and rude?" Ok. I get the feeling that people have been a little too accommodating to you in your life and now you expect it at every turn. I hope I'm wrong here but all indications point in that direction.

Beth wrote:Gym ropes sketch me out a bit.

Gym ropes have more durable sheaths that protect the core better and they're also a bit fatter (read: stronger). You're also putting less wear and tear on your rope when you are able to leave it in your pack.

I think yapping to my belayer and smoking weed at the crag would impact me more than leaving their ropes up. I climbed and rappeled on people's ropes for years...no problem. Hey, if gym ropes freak you out, you should have seen the ones they used in Rocks and Ropes on lead in Tucson! They changed them all eventually per our request. ..but not without reluctance. Talk about dead spots!
But in general people don't care about how they impact other climbers at the crag...unless someone tells them, then they may or may not be considerate. Women do get friendlier treatment though.

BethHux wrote: Are you calling me Eleanor? If you read all the way through my post, I do ask them to pull their rope, but I think it is unnecessary that I should have to do so.

I'm with you on that one, Beth. I always make sure my rope is either being climbed on or it is being cleaned.

One thing I've learned from the crowded ice park -- even if you're right, if you say anything, even something that regards other people's safety, even if you can solve the problem, you are the automatic asshole for the rest of the day.

What you really need is more friends at the crag then they have.

BethHux wrote:David Peterson - Wanna go pull the masks off bad guys and eat scooby snacks?

ZOINKS! I never thought you'd ask.

Marc H wrote: Just saw this. So you did (presumably) politely ask if you could pull their ropes and they obliged? But you still felt the need to post a PSA that called that group "obnoxious and rude?" Ok. I get the feeling that people have been a little too accommodating to you in your life and now you expect it at every turn. I hope I'm wrong here but all indications point in that direction. Gym ropes have more durable sheaths that protect the core better and they're also a bit fatter (read: stronger). You're also putting less wear and tear on your rope when you are able to leave it in your pack.

Marc - Are you freaking kidding me? That is a huge assumption to make about someone. People tend to only be accommodating to me when I turn on the raging bitch. I'm usually the one accommodating other people, I'm a girl who climbs with a lot of guys. My main climbing partner is ChefMattThaner for darwin's sake! (Go read some of his posts, accommodating is not a word I would use to describe him. Awesome yes, accommodating....) I inevitably end up accommodating. Read my profile, I don't even like trad. . And yes, they pulled the rope because I asked, and then I got dirty looks for the rest of the day for it. Also please note that I did not call the group obnoxious or rude, it is the behavior. Not one of the groups I have encountered were guided or even particularly noobish. They were groups of seemingly experienced climbers with maybe one noob i.e. people who should know better. If it was a guided group, I would not have cared unless they really were dominating the crag, and then I would have chatted up on of the guides. I addressed the problem in real life, and then I made my PSA on the internet. Why don't we stop trying to criticize me Marc H. and look at the actual problem, people getting in to climbing with no concept of common courtesy or consideration for their fellow climber? Obviously I cannot educate all of them on my own, and one person ragging on the brotastics (women can be bros here) probably won't make a huge difference. Maybe if everyone reminds them...

And regrading the accusations of sexism and ageism - You have assumed that I automatically get things because I am a woman, people are friendlier to me because I am a woman (Trust me, that does not always apply, especially if some girl thinks I'm chatting up her man when really I'm just nicely asking him to move his crap). Finally, you assumed that that I'm not assertive, which is a little surprising to me. Do you have any evidence of my lack of assertiveness other than me saying I don't want to talk to people about their crag behavior? In your first post in this thread, you threw your experience out to detract from my perception. Obviously I cannot compete with your experience, but I am out on the crags....a lot. What I am seeing is obviously local to my area, but just because I've only been climbing for coming 4 years, does not mean I cannot tell when something has changed or increased. My power of observation still works, despite my age and gender. Look, I get that you are generally trying to offer some insight into the situation, but your tone is condescending (and clearly I'm not the only person who thought that) and has generally not at all been the situation I have actually been dealing with. You have made a lot of assumptions about the people at the crags and me, when really I would have appreciated all of your experience and insight to go towards how to make them stop without everyone at the crag thinking I'm the douche.

Here is an example of what I said to them, after cheering on their noob over the crux, while I'm packing up my gear - "Hey guys, are you done with this route?" "Yes" "Cool, do you mind if we get on it?" "No" "Do you mind pulling your rope?" "I guess" - cue dirty looks and whispers

Where did I go wrong? Not pulling the rope myself? They had two people just sitting on their hands...

My issues with gym ropes only started after a whipper clinic, I know they do it pretty regularly. I'm sure they replaced the ropes in a timely manner, but (shocker) I can be little a neurotic. I just don't trust people to take care of equipment the way I do. Same goes when I'm riding horses or skiing. I prefer my own gear. I'd rather put more wear on my rope that I inspect regularly than some stranger at the crag. He might have farted on it.

Buff - True story.
Jake - I was pretty annoyed when I wrote the post, but it's generally not something I lose sleep over.
Stich- Yay!
David Peterson - I propose a new game, pull the beanie off the boulderer.
Bob - Maybe that is what I should do. Pull all the top ropes!

^^^ Nice response Beth! A lot of assumptions being made in this thread...

^ on both sides of the coin.