situp form and tight shoulders

I'm doing a core workout from the book "Training for the New Alpinism", and it includes what they call a "strict" situp, meaning back straight, hands behind head, elbows on the floor at the beginning of the movement and maintained in a plane with the back of the head all the way through the movement.

So: my shoulders are too tight to allow my elbows all the way down to the floor. Is this something that I should work on, or would stretching in this direction introduce shoulder laxity that I don't want?

My two cents: you should be able to have enough flexibility in your shoulders to keep with the proper technique of this exercise. Let this be motivation to purposely loosen your shoulders up; conciously put effort into stretching (not injuring however) your shoulders out.

I do not know your specific body, but I can tell you from experience more than the average human that Ive experience this or similar exercises with was able to get into and maintain "proper" technique with their shoulders. All without causing injury. You ultimately need to assess your body because maybe, just maybe, this isnt the "best" exercise for YOUR body.

How is the workout going for you? Your thoughts and experience with it?

I am not sure how situps are going to help you climb better, but this is how CrossFit does it: youtube.com/watch?v=EhG_x1b…

To stretch your shoulders out to improve mobility, stand with your nose touching the wall, reach overhead with one arm straight and extended to the sky, and press your arm against the wall slowly leading into it. Once that is not enough, fine a pole to press your arm against where you can move your shoulders forward of the pole further bending your arm back. You can also use a partner who is tall to hold your arm back as you lean forward. This is one of the most common mobility exercises in CrossFit, and it is used to increase range of motion for lifting.

You can also stretch your arms out with a PVC pipe or broomstick.

youtube.com/watch?v=vAUFxcs…

1:18. That exercise is also very common in lifting/ CrossFit.

The Stoned Master wrote:My two cents: you should be able to have enough flexibility in your shoulders to keep with the proper technique of this exercise. Let this be motivation to purposely loosen your shoulders up; conciously put effort into stretching (not injuring however) your shoulders out. I do not know your specific body, but I can tell you from experience more than the average human that Ive experience this or similar exercises with was able to get into and maintain "proper" technique with their shoulders. All without causing injury. You ultimately need to assess your body because maybe, just maybe, this isnt the "best" exercise for YOUR body. How is the workout going for you? Your thoughts and experience with it?

Thanks TSM... My instinct is also that the difficulty I'm having with this is a sign that my shoulders are too tight and that needs to be worked on, but just wanting to be careful. My concern is not injuring my shoulders doing situps, but rather that if I stretch my shoulders a bunch I'm going to de-stabilize them and subsequently injure myself while climbing.

The core workout in general seems excellent to me, I guess mainly because I'm startled by how bad at it I am, which in turn says to me that there is a huge opportunity there for me to improve fitness and flexibility. In the book they describe people needing to add all kinds of weight vests and extra resistance in order to keep this circuit challenging for them; since it's all I can do to get through most of the exercises with body weight, this says to me that there's an opportunity here for me to get a lot stronger. I've only done the circuit 4 or 5 times now over the past couple weeks, but my ability to do the exercises is definitely improving and I'm having to add resistance or reps to many of them.

20 kN wrote:I am not sure how situps are going to help you climb better, but this is how CrossFit does it: youtube.com/watch?v=EhG_x1b… To stretch your shoulders out to improve mobility, stand with your nose touching the wall, reach overhead with one arm straight and extended to the sky, and press your arm against the wall slowly leading into it. Once that is not enough, fine a pole to press your arm against where you can move your shoulders forward of the pole further bending your arm back. You can also use a partner who is tall to hold your arm back as you lean forward. This is one of the most common mobility exercises in CrossFit, and it is used to increase range of motion for lifting. You can also stretch your arms out with a PVC pipe or broomstick. youtube.com/watch?v=vAUFxcs… 1:18. That exercise is also very common in lifting/ CrossFit.

Thanks 20kN... That sequence you point out with the PVC at 1:18 would land me in an operating room if I did it the way he does! Points in a good direction though, I'll give that technique a very cautious try...

The intention behind why situps help you climb better is that (and I think maybe you already know this) it's your abdominal muscles that connect your feet to your fingertips. If your core is weak, your hands can't harvest that foot power, and have to make up the difference by wasting a bunch of upper body power to cover the sins. A number of strong climbers on this site have made comments over the years about the importance of a strong core, but I've been blowing it off until now... This particular workout seems to incorporate a lot of flexibility as well, in the shoulders, trunk, and hips. Again, I think limitations in flexibility at those points have to be compensated for with arm strength, so improving them is a way to get some arm strength or endurance for free.

At least, that's the plan...

Do you have problem doing bench/standing/inclined press and squats?

divnamite wrote:Do you have problem doing bench/standing/inclined press and squats?

"Problem" meaning problem in my shoulders with those exercises? Not sure, I don't do any of those, mostly do body weight exercises.

Again, though, my big concern is that if I really work to improve flexibility at the shoulder, am I going to be opening myself up to rotator cuff or other shoulder injuries by increasing the laxity of the joint?

Don't get aggro with shoulder flexibility. Find some shoulder mobility exercises to do every day. Kelly Starett (the supple leopard book author) might be a place to start.
If you can't maintain good (ideally perfect) form in an exercise stop the set to minimize risk of injury. If not sooner, your body will thank you in 10years since you have not jacked it up so bad you can't lift your arms over your head.

SMR wrote:Don't get aggro with shoulder flexibility. Find some shoulder mobility exercises to do every day. Kelly Starett (the supple leopard book author) might be a place to start. If you can't maintain good (ideally perfect) form in an exercise stop the set to minimize risk of injury. If not sooner, your body will thank you in 10years since you have not jacked it up so bad you can't lift your arms over your head.

Thanks, will check that Starett book out...

With these situps, though, in terms of getting my elbows into the plane of the back of my head (ie, down to the floor), I can't even do one rep with "perfect form", but I'm not using any weight or resistance on the arms, just straining hard to try getting the elbows down...do you think that even that is bad? It seems more like a stretching exercise to me...

I was over at T- nation and there is an article about bullet-proofing your shoulders. Maybe check it out - they show a guy who also has issues with elbow position when on his back.
Honestly I am a little confused by the recommendation to do situps?? Personally when I do sit-ups - including strict ones it really tightens up my hip flexors. I personally need to balance out those forward movements with back extensions etc. for core engagement dead lifts, kettle bell swings and weighted planks work much better for me. YMMV ...

SMR wrote:I was over at T- nation and there is an article about bullet-proofing your shoulders. Maybe check it out - they show a guy who also has issues with elbow position when on his back. Honestly I am a little confused by the recommendation to do situps?? Personally when I do sit-ups - including strict ones it really tightens up my hip flexors. I personally need to balance out those forward movements with back extensions etc. for core engagement dead lifts, kettle bell swings and weighted planks work much better for me. YMMV ...

The strict situps are part of a core circuit described in the book, weighted planks are another part of it, it's like 7 or 8 exercises in total. Definitely they're not advocating doing hundreds of situps.

Looked at that T-nation article, t-nation.com/training/how-t…
yep, that picture of the guy lying down is a pretty accurate representation of my problem.

I think I have to be pretty careful about how I approach this...I do not have, and have never had, a shoulder problem when I climb, so I don't want to create one solely so that I can more closely resemble a situp diagram in a book! I may just run it by my physical therapist... The PVC stretches in 20kN's video (above) look pretty safe as well because they do not involve any weight.

Thanks for the T nation suggestion, food for thought.

Mike McKinnon wrote:http://breakingmuscle.com/kettlebells/7-exercises-to-optimize-shoulder-health-with-kettlebells Breaking Muscle the end all and be all of sports physiology sites. Kettlebells are perfect for RTC and shoulder stability. I do these 7 exercises 3x a week. sometimes as a stand alone and sometimes to warm up.

Thanks Mike. What do you think about the idea of spending some time with no resistance before moving to the kettle bell? Safer, maybe?

Mike McKinnon wrote: you need some resistance to fire the rotator cuff muscles. Without weight, you wont create the proprioception you are looking for or create stability in the cuff muscles. I used a can of soup when i started out. It does not have to be heavy just enough weight that you can feel it when your shoulder falls out of alignment. 10lbs is what I use now and what I have always used. No need to go heavy. The people in that video are people who are using the KB for explosiveness and strength development. We are using it for stability, injury prevention and flexibility. With those goals in mind, light weight is sufficient.

Handy to have the videos laid out there in the article to learn how to do it right, too. Thanks again!