Accident on Manic Crack in NM

Best wishes Kerr.

Sidenote, based on above posts...

The difference between "What I thought was a perfect placement" and "Perfect placement" is great. +1 for the dude who said that up above.

Anyone who was following the earlier thread curious to know how things went for me when I pulled the trigger on the 50/50 will be happy to know that I came out on top. Yes, I shat myself.

Seems like this guy is trolling, looking for fame, or just gave in to the knee-jerk reaction of wanting to cover for his mistakes by laying blame.
Seriously if you had an accident due to a real gear defect, would you make posts over and over on multiple websites, with no information but lots of accusations, and label them "PSAs"? Of course not, any reasonable person with something legit to say would wait till some things are figured out and write out a couple paragraphs with actual details on a single thread.

How long does it take to post a couple photos in this day and age? 10 seconds at most? And this guy can write up half a dozen hype-generating replies but is too injured to give a blurb on what actually happened? Give me a break.

So the first thing I'd like to bring up is Guideline #1 when posting, don't be a jerk! I know it's asking for a lot from some of y'all, but seriously.

Second, I ask you, if you are in the hospital with a broken back, how would you take pictures of your gear and post them. Where would you even get your gear? Ask the rescuers to heli it out with you? Get patient, folks.

Third, Kerr is not trolling. He is just stating the facts as he sees them. He climbed, took on a .4, it failed to catch him, as did the two .3 pieces below him. All X4s. Also, he is not uploading tons of posts on multiple sites. He uploaded 1 on this site, then took it down due to general assholery on the users part. The other post that I'm aware of on reddit was posted by an acquaintance I believe, but not Kerr.

I know Kerr. I have climbed with Kerr for a couple years. He knows how to place gear. Manic crack has fairly straight forward placements. I was there climbing with him the day of the accident. I have held the cams. They exist, this happened, and we're working on figuring out how this happened.

There are two ways I see y'all in the forums dealing with this info:
1 - Give well wishes for a speedy recovery of fellow climber.
2 - Wait patiently for more info to arise and give helpful comments about ideas you have about how this happened.

its been a few years ago but i recall climbing this route and i am confident gear was too small for the crack. at 40 feet you should have been on a .5 C4, not an x4. i would fully expect "damaged" cams when ripping out poor placements.

That is correct Trevor, but Kerr was not 40' up yet. He was below the hand jam. ~25 - 30 feet. The reddit poster was mistaken on a few things. Having looked at it, the placements were not unreasonable and within the range of the cams. I'm going to hold off on posting any additional info as this is Kerr's bag, just wanted to try to quell some of the hate posting on this site.

A few things. First, I hope the Kerr recovers fully and can get back to climbing ASAP. David, cams are certainly not infallible, but individual humans, experienced or novice, are far more likely to make a mistake than a three sigma manufacturing process is. The comparison another user made to Aliens seems far fetched - wasn't the process used to manufacture CCH aliens rife with opportunities for human error to enter the equation?

Talking about manufacturing in China and the reduced quality is fun too, but if BD keeps a good eye on their manufacturing facilities this is pretty much a non issue. I think that the general level of eyebrow raising in this thread is due to the dire warnings juxtaposed with a total lack of additional information. I understand that Kerr is probably lying in a hospital bed, but you simply cannot make claims like this and expect to be taken credulously without any evidence to back them up.

If the true, altruistic motive is the safety of other climbers then the proper course of action would have been to wait patiently until it is possible to post a detailed accident report with pictures and analysis. Not vague details that won't stop a single person (certainly not me) from climbing on their X4's this weekend. I don't see any hate for Kerr or blind love of the SLCD being spouted in this thread, just a desire for substantive answers instead of vague rumors.

Wanted to point out.... from the original post on reddit, by the friend, see below. He's acknowledging the several possibilities. They're not saying that it definitely was defective equipment. They are saying, that it is one of the possibilties. This seems fair.

"Basically I can see three causes for this incident:

•It is possible that the threshold for an under-cam failure for the .3 and .4 X4s is less than that of other cams, possibly due to the dual-axle.

•For whatever reason the climber placed 3 tipped-out cams in a row despite his experience.

•Mechanical failure in the cams due to material or manufacturing defects. "

why no pics???

Look, everyone knows we all make mistakes, accidents happen, and it could just as easily have been anyone else. That's why Kerr is feeding into every climbers' fears when he's not in a good situation to do so. I am glad that it sounds like he will make a full recovery. But you have to admit he is getting certain kinds of reactions because he made many questionable decisions about how to communicate his experience. The first of which being this:

If he titled his post "I was in an accident," and he said, "hey guys I was in a bad accident... I am in the hospital but I think I'll be ok eventually. I am just having trouble understanding why my three X4s all failed to catch my fall and are now damaged. I'll try to post photos of them later." Then he probably would have gotten sympathy, encouragement, and helpful responses.

But instead he and his friends chose to say, essentially,
"PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT from me, the almost-AMGA-certified guy: YOUR CAMS MAY BE DEFECTIVE and I'm not going to explain until later. PS I know I'm right because I made perfect placements."
You see the difference? Of course the reaction was going to be bad; don't act so surprised and indignant about it.

pokey wrote:Look, everyone knows we all make mistakes, accidents happen, and it could just as easily have been anyone else. That's why Kerr is feeding into every climbers' fears when he's not in a good situation to do so. I am glad that it sounds like he will make a full recovery. But you have to admit he is getting certain kinds of reactions because he made many questionable decisions about how to communicate his experience. The first of which being this: If he titled his post "I was in an accident," and he said, "hey guys I was in a bad accident... I am in the hospital but I think I'll be ok eventually. I am just having trouble understanding why my three X4s all failed to catch my fall and are now damaged. I'll try to post photos of them later." Then he probably would have gotten sympathy, encouragement, and helpful responses. But instead he and his friends chose to say, essentially, "PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT from me, the almost-AMGA-certified guy: YOUR CAMS MAY BE DEFECTIVE and I'm not going to explain until later. PS I know I'm right because I made perfect placements." You see the difference? Of course the reaction was going to be bad; don't act so surprised and indignant about it.

I disagree. This the MP and the internet. He would have gotten the same response no matter what.

Thank you for everyone who had something positive to say. I'm up walking around (kind of) If I have my brace on.

I would just like to say that I'm not stating human error was not a factor. We're human, we make mistakes. I am definitely not immune to those mistakes.

I don't believe this has been brought up before but I have attempted this route previously with C4 Camalots. Same exact gear placements, just with C4 cams. Each piece was taken on and the first piece that pulled this most recent time (.4) was actually fallen on (7-8ft) and it did not pull or get damaged. Again, I am fully aware there is still room for human error here but it sure does make me think.

Thank you again everyone for the kind words. The gear is currently with a good friend of mine who is working with several other people to try and figure out what happened. Pictures will be posted soon.

pokey wrote:Look, everyone knows we all make mistakes, accidents happen, and it could just as easily have been anyone else. That's why Kerr is feeding into every climbers' fears when he's not in a good situation to do so. I am glad that it sounds like he will make a full recovery. But you have to admit he is getting certain kinds of reactions because he made many questionable decisions about how to communicate his experience. The first of which being this: If he titled his post "I was in an accident," and he said, "hey guys I was in a bad accident... I am in the hospital but I think I'll be ok eventually. I am just having trouble understanding why my three X4s all failed to catch my fall and are now damaged. I'll try to post photos of them later." Then he probably would have gotten sympathy, encouragement, and helpful responses. But instead he and his friends chose to say, essentially, "PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT from me, the almost-AMGA-certified guy: YOUR CAMS MAY BE DEFECTIVE and I'm not going to explain until later. PS I know I'm right because I made perfect placements." You see the difference? Of course the reaction was going to be bad; don't act so surprised and indignant about it.

I do apologize for the poor construction of my post. I was in the hospital in a lot of pain and heavily medicated and didn't have the presence of mind. To be perfectly honest, I was concerned for other people. I figured doing something was better than nothing.

No need to apologize. You were reaching out to the community, with your thoughts and some potentially important information. Who knows, maybe there is something wrong with the X4's. We shall see.

The thing to learn from all this is, internet posting is becoming a strange abnormal world of human semi-interactions. No way in hell would any of this style of communicating happen in real life. Humans are completely obsessesed with going on the internet in some form or another, instantaneously-- and then we are all addicted to the responses we get.

Heal up and stay strong in your instincts and beliefs!! Fear not!!

I am really glad to hear that you are already up and walking around. Regardless of whether it was user error or gear failure, I believe that there are a huge number of folks out here who have never met you but are pulling for you to make a fast and complete recovery.

Hang in there and post up again with pics when you can.

Kerr Adams wrote:Well, it would appear the accident is legit. The story behind it seems a bit fishy though. A cam failing on a "take"? I don't buy it... Los Alamos Daily Post </quote I does sound fishy, I know. But I am not lying.

I definitely was not implying you were lying, just that the exact details sounded a bit odd. I certainly hope you get healed up and back to climbing soon! No ill will meant.

Kerr Adams wrote: I do apologize for the poor construction of my post. I was in the hospital in a lot of pain and heavily medicated and didn't have the presence of mind. To be perfectly honest, I was concerned for other people. I figured doing something was better than nothing.

I am sorry about your accident and wish you a full recovery.

That being said, it wasn't just you. Your friend on reddit says in his post

"The gear failed, it did not pull. The failure began with a "take" on a .4 X4, which failed instantly."

To make such an absurd claim to a group of climbers without providing any evidence is irresponsible. 3 cams failing under body weight? Not pulling. Failing. Under a few hundred lbs of force when they are supposed to withstand several thousand. If even one failed under this circumstance that would be sensational. Saying 3 did so is absolutely outrageous and frankly I don't believe it.

Heal fast! It is importat to learn from accidents, and it is always best to hear from the source.

Also, a BD team should get involved and interview you, inspect the cams, measure the crack, test the rock, etc.

michael s... wrote: ......... Failing. Under a few hundred lbs of force when they are supposed to withstand several thousand. If even one failed under this circumstance that would be sensational.

You must be doing "NEW" math. The first cam allegedly failed under body weight. But, the cams below that would have been subject to lead falls... on a fairly short section of rope, quite a bit more than a few hundred pounds force. The rope would have given up some of its dynamics to the "take" depending on how much it took for the first piece to pull leaving less dynamics for the two successive pieces. Not saying this would lead to gear failure. Just one piece in a complex puzzle.

"Withstand SEVERAL thousand" ? Huh?

[0.4] 9 kN (2023 lbf)
[0.5] 9 kN (2023 lbf)

Kerr, I'm glad you are up and walking. You are fortunate. Many back injuries take months, if not years to heal. Good luck.
[0.75] 9 kN (2023 lbf)

Sigh......well done. I now see that it is probably more likely than not this guy had 3 cams fail on him due to his massive take-induced whipper. Excuse my misuse of the word "several".

michael s... wrote:Sigh......well done. I now see that it is probably more likely than not this guy had 3 cams fail on him due to his massive take-induced whipper. Excuse my misuse of the word "several".

Hilarious!