Indoor Climbing Features

slim wrote: just answer the question though, how many slab pitches outdoors have beachballs to stand on?

I'm not saying there are, but then again I've never, ever, climbed a "slab" route indoors that resembles slab routes outside, I think the holds available in the gym pretty much makes it impossible. But you know what else doesn't resemble climbing outside? The hangboard we are all fond of spending a lot of time on. That doesn't mean it's not an effective training tool, now, does it?

Hmmm, i dot think i have ever said that a hangboard resembles climbing outside. I break my workouts into focused sessions. For strength traininig for the types routes i do, the HB is a good tool. I try to do technical workouts at the gym, but it is difficult to make this generate results. The foremost reason for this is routesetting style.

Thanks for answering my question though, you havent climbed an indoor slab route that resembles an outdoor route. I have climbed indoor slab routes that i felt were applicable to oudoor slab/face routes. They didnt have giant slopers though.

Cor, nice try.

cnadel wrote:I like overhanging aretes that require lots of compression/hooking and sketchy top outs.

+1 for overhanging aretes. Also like pinches and tufas. I could care less for corners, unless they force you to do some cool drop knees. Pure stemming is only fun on real rock. Plus if you set a route with a stem rest in the corner, there will be inevitably people camped out there forever. Not a good utilization of space if you don't have many resources (space or routesetters).

Maybe not a 'feature', but I'd like to see more runouts in gyms, I'm sick of these gumbys hitting the real rock and expecting a bolt every inch.

Brendan N. (grayhghost) wrote: Pipe Dream pic...very dissapointed

Hah, you've got me there, Brendan. As I was typing that sentence, i actually thought, "Well, unless you are climbing at the Pipe Dream or the Arsenal..." I was referring to more of the Front Range style vert/crimp climbing. But yeah, you're right. Thats one reason Maple is so nice; you can swing from jugs all winter, and then go up there and still know what you're doing.

Another Pipe Dream picture:

Beach balls on a slab… Now I just need to find a dihedral with some…

slim wrote: you havent climbed an indoor slab route that resembles an outdoor route. I have climbed indoor slab routes that i felt were applicable to oudoor slab/face routes. They didnt have giant slopers though.

Let's not confuse face & slab routes. I find the balance required w/ positive but small holds in the gym to be trivial, and does not at all resemble slab climbing outside. It does train crimp strength on small holds though. However, I find the right sloper holds can stress body position & balance a lot more, since one can't easily compensate by pulling harder.

slim wrote: the slab walls should have tiny positive holds. otherwise they are a complete waste of time.

I would say just tiny while not necessarily positive. Little half-pebbles, polished knobs, sloping crimps. And the feet should be even smaller and less positive. Big holds that create a continuously sloping protrusion that has to be palm-smeared (not blob, more of a pancake) are welcome too. Very rare.

From my perspective, here is the list

-- more vertical and gently overhanging routes with small handholds and even smaller footholds. Most of climbing outside is face-climbing, not 45 degree caves

-- more routes with real small handhold and footholds that are close together and require balance, not jumping around

-- more technical footholds - small smear-dishes, edges oriented in directions other then up, ultra-small positive chips etc.

-- more hand-holds that can't be used as footholds when above them.

-- more hand-holds that can not be pinched (i actually make a conscious effort to avoid pinching on holds at the gym)

-- more volumes that can not be used as a hand-hold but can be heel-hooked, toe-hooked, knee-barred, foot-cammed etc

-- more crack and crack-like holds. Even when horizontal, these force to use open crimp rather then closed one

Meme Guy wrote:Maybe not a 'feature', but I'd like to see more runouts in gyms, I'm sick of these gumbys hitting the real rock and expecting a bolt every inch.

If someone has retro bolted those runout gym routes, then just skip the bolts. It's the same thing, sheesh!

Features I love:
-"Prows" in bouldering area, that is, an extended, very low roof that then transitions into a headwall. Too often, roofs are way too high to not just be intimidating or too short to have any actual roof moves on them.
-Bulgy aretes. I love climbing aretes.
-Chimneys are garbage, but dihedrals are usually really fun.

Mark E Dixon wrote: If someone has retro bolted those runout gym routes, then just skip the bolts. It's the same thing, sheesh!

I chop gym bolts for breakfast!

reboot wrote: Let's not confuse face & slab routes. I find the balance required w/ positive but small holds in the gym to be trivial, and does not at all resemble slab climbing outside. It does train crimp strength on small holds though. However, I find the right sloper holds can stress body position & balance a lot more, since one can't easily compensate by pulling harder.

but there isn't really a finite line between the two. sure the balance required is trivial, but if they are far enough apart for the grade, the movement between them isn't always trivial (at least not for me, but i know that you have a lot better leg strength than i do from a fully compressed position). also, you can use lateral or diagonal movement to adjust the difficulty.

i think one of the key problems with using the sloping pancake style of holds in the gym is that within a day they are jet black polished glass that is pretty much unusable. i think for most people this will hurt their technique, more than help. not to mention how nasty it is on your shoulders when your feet blow out. a good example would be the 4 routes that are 11a or harder on the slab wall at movement. the holds are in such bad shape that it isn't really worth doing these routes.

Cor - that's a better try :)

Some of these posts are getting to a question I have had for a long time. Training on the steep overhangs vs on the more vertical walls. If your goal is to climb better outside the obvious answer is diversity or climb on all the angles. My argument is around boulder most walls are not steep and require technique and finger strength. So within this context I believe that training on the more vertical walls would provide most benefit.

Discuss

sesser125 wrote:Some of these posts are getting to a question I have had for a long time. Training on the steep overhangs vs on the more vertical walls. If your goal is to climb better outside the obvious answer is diversity or climb on all the angles. My argument is around boulder most walls are not steep and require technique and finger strength. So within this context I believe that training on the more vertical walls would provide most benefit. Discuss

I always just try to climb the object in the gym that is most similar to what I am projecting. Example, I'm trying to go to the Red River Gorge in March, so what will I do? Boulder overhangs lots. I am going to Yosemite in the fall, what will I do the month before, train hand cracks, chimney's, small crimps, etc.

Marek Sapkovski wrote: I would say just tiny while not necessarily positive. Little half-pebbles, polished knobs, sloping crimps. And the feet should be even smaller and less positive. Big holds that create a continuously sloping protrusion that has to be palm-smeared (not blob, more of a pancake) are welcome too. Very rare. From my perspective, here is the list -- more vertical and gently overhanging routes with small handholds and even smaller footholds. Most of climbing outside is face-climbing, not 45 degree caves -- more routes with real small handhold and footholds that are close together and require balance, not jumping around -- more technical footholds - small smear-dishes, edges oriented in directions other then up, ultra-small positive chips etc. -- more hand-holds that can't be used as footholds when above them. -- more hand-holds that can not be pinched (i actually make a conscious effort to avoid pinching on holds at the gym) -- more volumes that can not be used as a hand-hold but can be heel-hooked, toe-hooked, knee-barred, foot-cammed etc -- more crack and crack-like holds. Even when horizontal, these force to use open crimp rather then closed one

Great point! Thats awesome! When in a gym what types of volumes do you like?

There's a serious limit to how realistic you can get with regards to small holds in a commercial gym setting. I recently expressed my wish for more realistic small holds (1/4" crimps, credit cards, nubbins, etc.) to the head route-setter at my local gym who is in the process of shopping for and ordering 7000 holds for a gym expansion. He basically said that really small holds and edges become worthless quickly, and that screw-ons are not tenable because they mess up the wall.

I think it would be nice if more people thought of indoor climbing like we think of other types of climbing. Granite climbing is different than sandstone climbing. Bouldering different from trad, etc.

Indoor does not equal outdoor, nor should that be the goal either. More, if not most, people experience indoor climbing as their introduction to the sport. Some of these folks will never climb outdoors. Some of them have no interest in climbing outdoors. So why should gyms try to make it in anyway like outdoors?

BTW, cracks indoors = horrible idea + a great way of getting a staph infection at your local gym.

2nd BTW, screw ons do "mess up" walls, but what are your walls for? Are they not for climbing on? Gym owners and managers who think they can keep their walls pristine are kidding themselves. Sure your walls are expensive, but they will not last forever.

Lastly, both of the above are just my opinion. I have gained them as a GM of two gyms, 1 being 21 years old and the other just over 2 years old.

Luke Bertelsen wrote:BTW, cracks indoors = horrible idea + a great way of getting a staph infection at your local gym.

Most of the time I agree. Sculpted cracks are usually worthless. However, Momentum did it right, and they're pretty amazing.

My gym has a roof over the main part of the climbing area that is about 30 ft long and has probably 10 or so routes in it, everything from a 5.9 to a 5.13. All lead only and so much fun

Mark Paulson wrote: Most of the time I agree. Sculpted cracks are usually worthless. However, Momentum did it right, and they're pretty amazing.

Another thing that sucks about sculpted cracks is that once you dial them, they're not super useful to train on. We have a Nicros wall with a crack and I know every inch of it, making any route implementing the crack feel about 3 grades easier than it ought to be.

Favorite features are knee bars (I rarely get to see those unless I make them up myself) and minuscule foot nubbins