Adding Bolts between runouts

Access fund is nominally involved with the HI climbing issue. There was a petition going around through Access Fund alert last week, and I believe that yesterday the state legislature had a vote on a sovereign immunity bill that would reopen climbing. I have no idea how that vote turned out.

And 20Kn...Yes, Mike R. is the friend I mentioned, have known him for about 25 years, and started climbing with him. It is likely that I have met you at some point also.

Joe Terravecchia wrote:Too scary? Grow a set or find another fucking route.

Joe was always good about getting to the point.

Ah, always the most constructive topic with the best of debate.

If the OP hasn't gotten it yet, the topic may prompt one to wear the bullet proof thong bikini.

This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.

Brian Payst wrote:The Access Fund is all over the Hawaii issue and has been for some time. There is a bill in the legislature that would extend liability to the state for hiking and climbing and should put things on the path to being reopened. Looks like that bill got unanimous approval from the committee it needed to pass and is on to the full house. Look here for info and how to help¬oc=1

Yes, the hearing was yesterday. We crushed the opposition and nearly maxed out the occupancy limit of the hearing room. There was so much testimony on the bill that the committee members got tired of hearing us testify.

The bill still has to go through one committee, and then it goes onto a house vote. If it clears the house, we should have our crag back (eventually).

hawaiinewsnow.com/story/245…

Guy Keesee wrote:20kN ..... that really sucks, how can the gov shut down a crag???? for no good reason (not that there is any reason to shut one down IMHO) Is a lawsuit going fwd???? Is the Acess Fund not involved???? (they stay away from the hard fights, IMHO) is there a thread on this closure??? im courious .....

It's the state, they can do whatever they want. No, there is no lawsuit going foward. To my knowledge, no one has ever successfully sued an outdoor landowner for a climbing injury anywhere in the USA. So really, the state closed the area in fear of a scenario that has never occurred in US history. Silly really. The Access Fund has been well involved, and they flew an attorney out here last year to help us.

Thanks! Finally some good news on this! Had no idea that the access fund finally became committed. When I said that lawsuits ensued, I did not intend that being construed as towards the state. From what I understand, there is/was a suit against the Camp. No?

(To everyone else-sorry about hijacking this thread. Now back to adding/chopping bolts on runnouts!)

Meme Guy wrote: Stone Mountain rangers took it on Wednesday. Park is still closed and they're slow as hell about opening after snow/ice. You may want to call ahead. ncparks.gov/Visit/parks/stm… Update. Park open up to the upper parking lot. Bitch of a hike in if you ask me.

Thanks. I was seriously considering getting on the Pulpit in the AM. I guess I'll find something else.

the schmuck wrote:Thanks! Finally some good news on this! Had no idea that the access fund finally became committed. When I said that lawsuits ensued, I did not intend that being construed as towards the state. From what I understand, there is/was a suit against the Camp. No? (To everyone else-sorry about hijacking this thread. Now back to adding/chopping bolts on runnouts!)

I dont know if the family ever followed through with the suit against the YMCA.

Joe Terravecchia wrote:Too scary? Grow a set or find another fucking route.

I'm curious as to why you feel the need to go here. Does it really bother you that much that others might not be as comfortable with scarier climbs? You act as though I have already retro-bolted some routes that you hold close to your heart. This is not an attack on you, but it just really bothers me how some people respond to others on MP.

Mark Byers wrote:Every time this discussion comes up I think, what would Harding do?

Mark, when I read your comment re: Harding, I had the very same thought about what Beckey, Pratt, Chouinard, Merry, Frost, Robbins, Salathe, etc. and etc. and etc. would do. (Apologies to the many I did not name...an endless list).

I think I know what Harding would do and it might be an ugly, lop-sided defense.

At the end of the day however, I think all the gentlemen would slightly shake their heads and simply walk away, disappointed that it has come to this kind of dialogue, both in tone and substance.

Jared, Sorry I considered mine to be a serious and constructive comment. I've gone on at length about retrobolting before, and tired of the same old discussion, only had enough energy for a brief comment. In truth, it was aimed as much at those more experienced climbers on this thread who ought to know better. I know you probably haven't been climbing very long but that anyone can ask if adding bolts to a route to reduce the risk is I'm sorry, astounding to me and judging from some of the comments here, a reflection of the sport in general.
I'm not concerned as you say I am with your comfort level on a climb. I simply don't want you altering a route to suit your ability level. Imagine what this sport would look like if any route was open to be bolted to the comfort level of some future wanker. Bachar Yerian as we know it, gone. Body and Soul, gone. Stage Fright, gone. Southern Belle, just another trade route.

"Why have run outs on 5.10 or harder?". Are you serious? Its hard to know where to begin. Has it ever occurred to you that that some climbers actually enjoy the mental challenges involved on runout routes?

20kN, Dude I applaud you and the rest of the Oahu climbing communities efforts to reopen your climbing area. I hope to get over there at some point to taste some of your moderate classics and do some surfing as well.

I can't believe I actually read this thread on such a beat to death topic as retro bolting and more than anything that I'm writing into a bolting debate thread {but)..
I come from a period where the only accepted style of climbing was ground up with no preinspection. Rap bolting was tabu in our way of thinking.
We were also fortunate in that we had a vast amount of quality, fairly accessible unclimbed rock.
My gang and I put up quite a few bolt routes ground up with hammer and hand drill on lead drilling from natural stances that were often very small and dicey. Hooks were acceptable but only for protection until we could get a hole deep enough to put a wire nut around the bit.It was very bad style to hang on aid.
In our way of thinking we had only one chance to do the first ascent and after that who cares.
This was the only acceptable style of the day and that was the game.
It was the first ascent that mattered and yes we were making a statement.
This was not always the case and on several occasions the line was so classic that I went back and replaced suspect bolts that I had placed in utter desperation but I never added any.
Over the years I have been approached buy various people that were interested in some of those old lines and I was asked for permission to add additional bolts in strategic spots to some of my routs that we really run out but great climbing otherwise. After consideration in most cases I agreed as long as they kept me in the loop.
Replacement of old and suspect bolts was and is always appreciated on my part.
At this point in my life I really appreciate a well planned route with good protection.

Jared Moore wrote: I'm curious as to why you feel the need to go here. Does it really bother you that much that others might not be as comfortable with scarier climbs? You act as though I have already retro-bolted some routes that you hold close to your heart. This is not an attack on you, but it just really bothers me how some people respond to others on MP.

Jared, not to pile on....but to add to Joe Terravecchia's well written comment. I live 15 minutes away from one of the meccas of climbing (it's in the western U.S. (but I'll leave the name out because it may ID the culprits; we're after them in other ways).

Much of the original climbing back in the day were done by people whose names are legendary, many still alive, some not. A number of the climbs remain test pieces and we have uber climbers here who hold them in awe and respect the history of the original ascent. Some were put up years ago in hob nail boots -- the run outs are mind bending -- and should be left that way. If people are intimidated by them, don't even try.

There is a new mindset here, mostly generational, that believe bolts are very OK, even in the middle of the street should the traffic slow down enough to give them time to drill (kidding - sort of). But their attitude is unstoppable. They drag power drills wherever they can get them and have placed hundreds of bolts on routes, often only 15 feet apart on 5.7 routes and sometimes at night. No exaggeration and on top of that, many are not even safe; those of us who have wrenched them out are flabbergasted.

They've bolted new lines within 20 feet of other routes. The bolts glint in the sun.; some of us now refer to some large, difficult slabs as the "Sea of Bolts". Their pet attitude is not to put up new routes, rather, attempt to "make them safer". But in their minds, the twain meet.

They've been talked to but in vain. One of these days, it won't be an attempt with a friendly chat....it's going to get ugly and then no one wins.

It got so out of hand that we've put up a website asking people to report this shit and it's quickly followed by "real" climbers chopping or removing them. The sadness is not so much the effort to even try to keep up with them, it's that even chopping them often leaves unsightly scars. It's really a form of rape.

The pioneers of these routes would...well....don't know what they'd think other than a profound sadness.

To add on to what Warbonnet had to say, while I embrace the respect for the past and tradition, there was much more involved in the traditional thought on bolts then respect for the 1st accent party. Much of the traditional thought on bolts was aligned to save things the future. If you bolt run outs to make them safe where do those that come after us test themselves??? Where do they put their ass on the line ? Whether 5.7 or 5.11 there are those of us that want to push ourselves mentally and physically. For some the mental challenge is what defines climbing, that mental challenge is often found on run out routes.

beensandbagged wrote:To add on to what Warbonnet had to say, while I embrace the respect for the past and tradition, there was much more involved in the traditional thought on bolts then respect for the 1st accent party. Much of the traditional thought on bolts was aligned to save things the future. If you bolt run outs to make them safe where do those that come after us test themselves??? Where do they put their ass on the line ? Whether 5.7 or 5.11 there are those of us that want to push ourselves mentally and physically. For some the mental challenge is what defines climbing, that mental challenge is often found on run out routes.

Beensandbagged: Agree with the previous commenter on my comment which focused on the present value of avoiding out-of-line bolting. Your comment is unique in this string and perhaps one of the most important thoughts in this dialogue. Your thinking is outside of our own box. Important comment to this perpetual issue.

actually the ball cupping going on here is nothing that hasnt been discussed a thousand times already.

I'm still waiting to here Mr Ross to answer my question about his own runout routes in the swell where he practically invited people to bring their own drill in case they needed it.

I can make any route I have ever done a runout mental challenge if I choose to(been said a thousand times!).

USBRIT wrote: Sorry have been basking in the sunshine here in UK. I think what I said as a good samaritan ..I advised bringing a hand drill on some climbs in the Swell as with the distance between some bolts (ie One bolt or none at all on a 200'pitch )it could be easy to get off route. As you may know down climbing on slabs is not easy. I also think I mentioned that its not easy to hand drill on softish rock and leave a tight enough hole for a bolt and advised bringing baby angles.Most of the climbs in that area about 200+ usually have shorter or reasonable run outs when 5.9 and over.Many of the climbs are multi pitch some with 9 pitches.I am not too uptight if someone is gripped for them place an extra bolt on these climbs to get out of trouble.So often the trouble is mental as these days eight feet is considered a run out.

I ended up on a pitch or two there with one bolt in 100', it was still pretty fun. I didnt get on any over 5.7 because of the runouts there, I will say that. Thats the style of the entire sandstone ridge there and you would never go there expecting it to be a sport cliff. I bet over time because of the good samaritan advice more bolts will pop up and nobodies ass will get chapped over it.

MJMobes wrote:I can make any route I have ever done a runout mental challenge if I choose to(been said a thousand times!).

Sorry Mobes, skipping bolts or gear on a well protected route is a totally different endeavor than climbing a run-out line. There is no commitment involved in skipping bolts. You can repeat your argument as many times as you want, it still won't be true.

I know the rule is, don't be a jerk, but it should read,

Don't go against self righteous twits who believe their ethical superiority is justification for violence.

Or you'll be a jerk,

Seems like it's fine to be a jerk as long as you are proud of your ball-sack and you believe in the "right" god.

Bets on how long it takes the mental midget behind the mask to assert his authority?