Not all who belay can belay

Jumping to create a soft catch requires remarkable timing. This link shows the forces on a climber in a 10ft fall. cs.cmu.edu/~cline/Climbing/… The peak force occurs over about .002 seconds, with the load building gradually over about 1 second. A belayer jumping will take over 1.0 seconds to react and get his CG to start moving, after a falling climber yells. The belayer's peak effective reduction of the load on the climber will occur over .1 seconds. If the belayer's timing is ridiculously accuate, he will decrease the load on the falling climber by about 10% at the peak. Over the next 0.4 seconds the belayer will slightly increase the load on the climber. The smallest mis-timing may slightly increase the load on the climber at the peak.

Alternatively, if the belayer is in a position where the maximum load can safely pull the belayer (without any active contribution by the belayer), so that the belayer moves some distance under load, that is other than a direct belay, over even 0.1 seconds, the peak load on the falling climber will be reduced.

The biggest contributing factor to a soft catch is a belayer who can allow himself to be safely pulled by the maximum impact of the falling climber.

bearbreeder wrote: So now youre saying that people who are concerned with BASIC safety are involved in accidents now ?? If youve ever seen or experinced an accident it is no laughing matter except to intrawebbers likeu Well lets just go and say that your attitude makes me think yr a "dangerous" belayer ... How much do you whip or catch whippers there Youre more interested in comparing intraweb dick sizes than having a meaningful discussion about belaying... Go back to your moderate to do trad list little one ;)

ouch that really hurts bro, back to preaching safety on 20 different forums

really, if I met a guy at THE GYM who couldnt stop talking about safe belays and how to do everything by the newest book I wouldnt climb with him. thats you.

;)

Syd wrote:Jumping to create a soft catch requires remarkable timing. This link shows the forces on a climber in a 10ft fall. cs.cmu.edu/~cline/Climbing/… The peak force occurs over about .002 seconds, with the load building gradually over about 1 second. A belayer jumping will take over 1.0 seconds to react and get his CG to start moving, after a falling climber yells. The belayer's peak effective reduction of the load on the climber will occur over .1 seconds. If the belayer's timing is ridiculously accuate, he will decrease the load on the falling climber by about 10% at the peak. Over the next 0.4 seconds the belayer will slightly increase the load on the climber. The smallest mis-timing may slightly increase the load on the climber at the peak. Alternatively, if the belayer is in a position where the maximum load can safely pull the belayer (without any active contribution by the belayer), so that the belayer moves some distance under load, that is other than a direct belay, over even 0.1 seconds, the peak load on the falling climber will be reduced. The biggest contributing factor to a soft catch is a belayer who can allow himself to be safely pulled by the maximum impact of the falling climber.

Yes and no

If a climber is the same weight as the belayer or heavier then the fall will naturally pull you up IF the friction is minimal ... at that moment you naturally hop .. There is no "hard" timing here ... You just DONT RESIST the pull of the rope and hop into it ...

Now if the climber is alot lighter or there is alot of drag then the timing of the hop becomes much more critical or even impractical ... You will not get pulled up much so it will be hard to jump into the catch ...

In this case a better solution when cragging sport is to stand a bit back from the wall and walk into the catch ... Easier to time and if you misjudge you dont have any counterweight force coming back down from a jump

A third way is with an atc and "belaying long" ... Hold the rope farther back than you would normally and when the climber falls the brake hand feeds the rope through ... This does of course carry its own risks, and gloves are recommendes

Soft catches are no myth ...

anyone who whips on sport routes will tell u that

petzl.com/en/outdoor/grigri…

;)

MJMobes wrote: ouch that really hurts bro, back to preaching safety on 20 different forums really, if I met a guy at THE GYM who couldnt stop talking about safe belays and how to do everything by the newest book I wouldnt climb with him. thats you. ;)

Youre the idiot who is tellig belayers to LET GO of the rope when they are on a grigri ..

If its a girl/small person that I outweigh I let them know that if the rope starts letting out too fast for comfort just LET GO of everything. The main accident that happens with the grigri is lowering mistakes.

mountainproject.com/v/not-a…

Anyone who say that and complaining about people too safe ... LOL

You should probaly read the "book" yourself ... Insted of being one of those "hey im safe, let go when i fall" climbers

;)

I tell brand new belayers the same thing. Mobes is correct, It may hurt your brain a little , like republicans and global warming, but panicing and grabbing the gri will drop the climber. Letting go will not. Every. Single .time.

David Sahalie wrote:I tell brand new belayers the same thing. Mobes is correct, It may hurt your brain a little , like republicans and global warming, but panicing and grabbing the gri will drop the climber. Letting go will not. Every. Single .time.

they might kick you out of THE GYM though

David Sahalie wrote:I tell brand new belayers the same thing. Mobes is correct, It may hurt your brain a little , like republicans and global warming, but panicing and grabbing the gri will drop the climber. Letting go will not. Every. Single .time.

So you teach new belayers to LET GO of the gri gri AND the rope rather than teaching them to HOLD THE BRAKE side ofthe rope eh?

Sorry to disappoint you but going hands free as someone is falling is NOT safe ... There have been accidents

thebmc.co.uk/gri-gri-unmask…

Its absolutely and utterly amazing how MPers will go on about "following the manufacturers recommentaion" on thing like tie in points ... Yet ignore them for something as important and accident causing as belaying

Heres a hint ... Rather than teaching em to "let go" ... Teach em proper ROPE CONTROL for the brake hand

Or these newbs will be running around letting go of the brake thinking theyvr been taught how to safely belay by MP "experts"

;)

Not the best overall technique, but I have had 12 year olds catch 20' falls by instructing them to let go if I fall. More like a stop gap measure if you dont have the time or resources to teach how to do it correctly.

David Sahalie wrote:Not the best overall technique, but I have had 12 year olds catch 20' falls by instructing them to let go if I fall. More like a stop gap measure if you dont have the time or resources to teach how to do it correctly.

Brilliant.

David Sahalie wrote:Not the best overall technique, but I have had 12 year olds catch 20' falls by instructing them to let go if I fall. More like a stop gap measure if you dont have the time or resources to teach how to do it correctly.

Nothing more needs to be said

I hope every new climber including 12 year olds reads this ...

;)

bearbreeder wrote: Now if the climber is alot lighter or there is alot of drag then the timing of the hop becomes much more critical or even impractical ... You will not get pulled up much so it will be hard to jump into the catch ... In this case a better solution when cragging sport is to stand a bit back from the wall and walk into the catch ... Easier to time and if you misjudge you dont have any counterweight force coming back down from a jump A third way is with an atc and "belaying long" ... Hold the rope farther back than you would normally and when the climber falls the brake hand feeds the rope through ...)

Yes, if the climber is much lighter, standing away from the wall allows the belayer to be moved by the falling climber to soften the catch. In this case an indirect belay should be used to avoid any chance of the belayer tripping and falling and dropping the climber.

Standing away from the wall where possible is always a safe way to avoid rockfall dangers. I've had plenty.

In either case of heavy or light climbers, my point is that movement of the belayer by the force of the falling climber gives a soft catch, rather than any jumping or hopping actions on the part of the belayer. The belayer may think that his jump has helped but this is not the case. It the pull on the belayer from the falling climber that produces the soft catch. Just check the math for the timings.

Where there is much friction in the system, the belayer has little effect on the softness of the catch, no matter what he does.

David Sahalie wrote:I tell brand new belayers the same thing. Mobes is correct, It may hurt your brain a little , like republicans and global warming, but panicing and grabbing the gri will drop the climber. Letting go will not. Every. Single .time.

This is ignorant at the entertaining level. I'm amused.

To teach someone to let go of everything in a climbing situation is dangerous at so many levels. I understand the idea and it may serve well in a few gri gri situations. But, it is a terrible reflex to teach.

To teach someone to never ever let go of the brake strand ever would be much more valuable. Remember, things happen really fast in a real situation. Reflexes become a critical factor when fractions of a second count. And reflexes come from training, practice and habits. To grab that brake strand is so important when belaying with an atc, rappelliing, lowering and even with a gri gri. Yes, even with the gri gri as it does not lock with many of todays ropes. Check with your local gym manager if you need confirmation on the most common causes of dropped leaders. To instruct someone to let go in a panic is down right dangerous. Yes, I realize there have been accidents with gri gri's and belayers grabbing the device. Also, with the Cinch. But, imagine if these people were taught to never ever let go of the brake strand? The same required when lowering, rapping, and belaying with ever other device.

Now, your comment about republicans and global warming. That was even better. I'm not a republican but I do read the IPCC's reports. Even this liberal, global warming promoting organization recently reported that the predicted temp increases didn't happen.

Nonetheless, how much fossil fuel did you use today?

Syd wrote: Yes, if the climber is much lighter, standing away from the wall allows the belayer to be moved by the falling climber to soften the catch. In this case an indirect belay should be used to avoid any chance of the belayer tripping and falling and dropping the climber. Standing away from the wall where possible is always a safe way to avoid rockfall dangers. I've had plenty. In either case of heavy or light climbers, my point is that movement of the belayer by the force of the falling climber gives a soft catch, rather than any jumping or hopping actions on the part of the belayer. The belayer may think that his jump has helped but this is not the case. It the pull on the belayer from the falling climber that produces the soft catch. Just check the math for the timings. Where there is much friction in the system, the belayer has little effect on the softness of the catch, no matter what he does.

Yes and no ...

Timing a jump where there is rope drag is difficult if not impossible

However walking in or feeding slack will work with practice

This is quite important where one goes into a horizontal roof then transitions back to a face .. Without a soft catch ive seen people swing and get bashed into the roof lip

Like everything else it takes practice and experience

The only way is to practice catching whippers and to know what to do

;)

David Sahalie wrote:Not the best overall technique, but I have had 12 year olds catch 20' falls by instructing them to let go if I fall. More like a stop gap measure if you dont have the time or resources to teach how to do it correctly.

This emphasizes the root of the "shitty belayer" out there. If you don't have time to teach someone properly, don't teach them. Belaying is an age old contract between two climbers who put their lives in each others hands... literally. It is taken way too lightly by way too many. But, it is the responsibility of the mentor/teacher to impress upon their student in no less than an absolute way that belaying is critical to the life of your partner. If you fuck up, your partner dies.

Syd wrote:Jumping to create a soft catch requires remarkable timing. This link shows the forces on a climber in a 10ft fall. cs.cmu.edu/~cline/Climbing/… The peak force occurs over about .002 seconds, with the load building gradually over about 1 second. A belayer jumping will take over 1.0 seconds to react and get his CG to start moving, after a falling climber yells. The belayer's peak effective reduction of the load on the climber will occur over .1 seconds. If the belayer's timing is ridiculously accuate, he will decrease the load on the falling climber by about 10% at the peak. Over the next 0.4 seconds the belayer will slightly increase the load on the climber. The smallest mis-timing may slightly increase the load on the climber at the peak.

Consider the following graph:

These are real lead falls I recorded in the field. I used a real belayer, I fell on the load cell and I fell on a real route. Here is the legend:

1: - Dynamic catch – 13’ total – 3.09 kN
2: - Static catch (belayer just stood there) – 10’ total – 3.75 kN
3: - Running belay (belayer yanked in slack and ran backwards) – 7’ total – 3.91 kN



1: 15’ total – 3.61 kN (soft catch)
2: 20’ total – 3.76 kN (soft catch)
3: 23’ total – 3.61 kN (soft catch)

As far as the "peak load duration," goes, first we would have to define what the peak load duration really is. Sure, the true peak may only occur over a microsecond, but over 5,000 microseconds the load may not change more than a pound. Accordingly, when I speak to "peak duration" I normally consider the duration to be the time elapsed over the top 10% highest load recorded in the waveform. In that case, the peak duration of the typical sport climbing falls I posted above is actually around 0.35 seconds.

If you are performing drop testing in a drop tower with a steel weight and a static belay, the load duration will decrease significantly. In the field, I have not observed load durations much shorter than what is displayed above, and I have recorded a number of typical lead falls at the crag.

I am in the process of researching real-world loading differences between high- and low-impact-force ropes, as well as soft and hard catches. While I still have a fair amount of work to do, in every scenario where I compared a hard catch to a soft catch, the load on the top piece and the climber was noticeably lower.

Anyway, it is quite easy to perform a soft catch, and the belayer does not need to time it down to the microsecond. With practice, almost anyone and can perform correctly a soft catch.

P.S. I am confident the test you linked is not a field analysis. It says in the first sentence it is a drop test, which would explain the high load and low loading duration.

Greg , the gri, like a seatbelt, is not an 'age old contract', it is a redundant device that takes the human instant response factor out.

I also used to be really good at timing pumping my brakes while sliding on ice, now I rely on ABS. Skill set lost? Sure . But the end result is that I stop better with technology than relying on human response, even my own .

David Sahalie wrote:Greg , the gri, like a seatbelt, is not an 'age old contract', it is a redundant device that takes the human instant response factor out. I also used to be really good at timing pumping my brakes while sliding on ice, now I rely on ABS. Skill set lost? Sure . But the end result is that I stop better with technology than relying on human response, even my own .

its a useless conversation/argument on Mtn Proj Dave, these guys have safety figured out to a T and you and I are dangerous rebels.

what I'd like to see is everyone's personal record of days on the rock vs accidents caused by the belay on the rope they were sharing with someone. call it a penis comparison if you like, I'll go first-

2000-2500 days on the rock, zero accidents(at least 100 days with total n00bs)

David Sahalie wrote:Greg , the gri, like a seatbelt, is not an 'age old contract', it is a redundant device that takes the human instant response factor out. I also used to be really good at timing pumping my brakes while sliding on ice, now I rely on ABS. Skill set lost? Sure . But the end result is that I stop better with technology than relying on human response, even my own .

Comparing ABS and seatbelts with instruction to let go of a belay device (grigri or not) is a poor analogy.

Ryan Nevius wrote: Comparing ... seatbelts with instruction to let go of a belay device (grigri or not) is a poor analogy.

I disagree, its the exact same type of mechanism

Loads of climbers claim 20+ years of experience. In that time, they've logged a couple hundred days and caught a few dozen whippers.

Then they call out noobs who have climbed 200 days of the past 4 years and catch a dozen falls almost each of those days.