Not all who belay can belay

"By nicelegs
Give them a gri and relax."

I agree with John. It doesn't exactly fix the problem. I was dropped about 20 ft from the top of a climb by a newbie that thought he was supposed to use two hands on the lever. Luckily he had the sense to let go of the thing before I decked. Marginal belaying skill is one thing, but not having a clue as to how the equipment is even worse.

When climbing with someone new I mike sure it's on a route that doesn't require much thought to give a safe belay. (No ledges, good protection, limited ground fall potential) this way if I know they can make a catch I should be good.

Ryan-

Besides the pain in the ass to clean, to me it's a sign of over confidence in gear placement or laziness. I like to trust my partners gear as if I had placed it myself. No one intentionally places over cammed gear. Kind of a sign something's not right. Same as no one intentionally short ropes. I consider both lazy. I am all about being lazy, just not while climbing.

Locker wrote:"I always make sure that my first few routes or pitches with a new partner are soloable" Ditto! So it means we start on 4.1-

Hey, if that's what it takes! ;-)

I put new climbing people on gri, check it myself before climbing, climb predictably and don't push it on lead when first learning about the person's abilities, rap off instead of them lowering you. Observe them in general..it will tell you a lot about their competence.

slim wrote:i think one of the problems is that a LOT of gyms teach people how to belay using a really bad method (the one where you pull the ropes up parallel to each other, slide your hand up the rope, etc - basically spend half your time in a position where you have zero lockoff ability). to me, it seems that many of these 'teachers' don't really fundamentally understand how a belay device works.

+1

This method works ok for a toprope belay but then makes it hard for climbers who have learned that method to switch their hand position for a good lead belay. The number of people that pass their lead belay test in Bay Area gyms without being able to do it safely (i.e. using the method described above) is pretty disturbing to me. Part of the 'lead belay' test in these gyms involves leading an overhanging 5.10 route without a fall. This moves the focus of the test from giving a safe belay to being able to lead 5.10. In my opinion this totally misses the point and churns out unsafe belayers.

Another pet peeve on this same subject is that I've noticed lead clinics teaching climbers to say 'take' when they are falling. This is potentially dangerous as it precludes the possibility for a soft catch. Why not say 'falling' when you are falling? Rant over...

One season, I climbed with 3 or 4 people I met on mountain project, as well as a lot of really random people ("do you know what a rope is? no? I'll show you, c'mon we're going climbing!") and the approach I took was to never put my life entirely in their hands until I was certain they would catch me. That summer, I climbed a lot of easy routes, and by the time I'd whittled it down to one or two people, I was back to getting on things that I could, in principle, fall on.

As far as teaching the slip-slap-slide method, that is NOT a "gym teaches bad technique" scenario, its that the designated rope-gun in a group of gumbies learned it that way, and now he's taught all his friends, or the new belayer has noticed that the rope moves much easier that way, and their teacher has not hammered home the importance of keeping the system locked off when the rope isn't moving. That is, the transition from teaching slip-slap-slide to brake-under-slide started around 2006 (in terms of industry best practices), so if a gym is still teaching that, then I'd expect everything else to be dangerously out of date too.

Typically, if I see somebody that I've taught reverting to the parallel strand thing, I'm also, more-or-less in the same breath, telling them to keep a hand on the break strand. Usually after about 45 minutes of actual belaying, with continuous coaching, they get to the point of a "safe" belay, at which point I can offer pointers, but they'll have to learn a lot of "good" belay techniques by experiencing the benefits first hand.

Jake Sahl wrote: +1 This method works ok for a toprope belay but then makes it hard for climbers who have learned that method to switch their hand position for a good lead belay. The number of people that pass their lead belay test in Bay Area gyms without being able to do it safely (i.e. using the method described above) is pretty disturbing to me. Part of the 'lead belay' test in these gyms involves leading an overhanging 5.10 route without a fall. This moves the focus of the test from giving a safe belay to being able to lead 5.10. In my opinion this totally misses the point and churns out unsafe belayers. Another pet peeve on this same subject is that I've noticed lead clinics teaching climbers to say 'take' when they are falling. This is potentially dangerous as it precludes the possibility for a soft catch. Why not say 'falling' when you are falling? Rant over...

+ 1 and +1 again. I've seen these techniques used by newer younger climbers at the crag. They spend more tome moving hands and repositioning, than being in a brake/lock off position. And because I'm old, and they climb harder than I do anymore, they take my input or suggestion offensively and with no regard.
Their gym is infallable to them, and thus they continue with poor belaying technique. Just because they haven't mastered dozens of past used devices, to see the strength or weakness of each method, and cuz they are snot nosed youth of present know-it-all generation doesn't help either. I mean, even 10 years ago when I was an old dude in mid 50's, there was a much more open attitude among young climbers. Something has changed today, and a stubborn attitude, maybe brought on by their current selection of role models, and knowing NOBODY besides maybe Lynn Hill from any previous generation or of climbing history that isn't just sport or bouldering gods of today.

I usually just cut their rope. If they stick the landing without moving after then they're obviously smart enough to understand how much it hurts. If they bounce back up, well, we all know what happened in 1692.

Woodchuck -- I find your generalization of an entire generation to be a little harsh. Don't judge all of us based on those dick holes. But I see your point, and I appreciate it.

I actually enjoy climbing with climbers of all genders, sizes, shapes, colors, and ages, and can usually find something (sometimes many things) to learn from each of them (even if the thing I learn is, "Never let that person belay you again, Jon. Never.")

I've been really lucky to find partners and a mentor on climbing forums. Most of the guys have been super experienced and climb really hard. Pretty much the opposite of me at the time.

On the other hand I replied to someone looking for an ice partner one year. He was a fun person and hanging out was cool. Only problem is he started to guess the right answers. I asked do you have any experience belaying with doubles.. He replied like a double pitch?.. Yikes! My other favorite from that weekend was I asked if anyone had anything to backup a rap station. The two pieces of webbing tied to the tree looks like it had been there since the 80s and one looked like it was falling apart I guess. Never seen webbing look like that. The reply was That ring and those straps wouldn't be there if they weren't safe.. umm what?

I guess my advice is if you get into the car with a new partner and he has the freedom of the hills out... beware.

Given the amount of inflated belay competency self-assessment in this thread, I wouldn't let most of you belay me.

I've climbed with a few people through MP, and luckily they are all good partners. Before going out to crags, I usually look a bit at the person's ticklist to make sure that he/she has climbed enough outdoors. I actually find it more worrying climbing outside with people I only met in gyms--a lot of those climbers have the habit of chatting while belaying and don't have the patience to pay attention for one's entire climb.

It's necessary to be careful, and one finds its criteria to make decisions, as mentioned nicely by numerous above.

Not only am I cautious with who belays me, I've left a few crags before just because I've seen terrible belays and I wasn't in the mood to see somebody deck.

As for the "young vs old" debate, some of the worst belayers I see in the gym are old dudes. Perhaps their rope handling technique itself is fine, but they stand like 15 feet away from the wall so the rope up to the first draw is more horizontal than vertical. Then they stand in a spot such that if their climber were to fall, they'd end up with the rope right between their legs. I always picture the climber falling and getting rope burn on his nuts while the belayer is pulled face first into the climbers ass...

While perhaps not a "belay" issue, something else that scares me is the kids who insist on lead climbing with headphones on. Is listening to that Skrillex song really worth not being able to have your belayer communicate with you?

one VERY real issue is that many belayers are never really tested ...

they catch one or two good falls and everyone thinks they are good ...

theres a BIG difference between a belayer who can catch repeated whippers safely ... and ones that does it a few times a year ...

a good belayer will ALWAYS be catching falls ... even if its just in the gym and for practice ...

to put it simply ... its basic math

if you take 5-10 whippers a day on your hard sport/trad/gym lines ... and if you climb hard/project 100+ days a year ... which is not unusual for people trying to progress at their limit

then youre looking at 1000+ whippers in a year or two ...

a belayer who is 99.9% "reliable" WILL drop you in a year or two ...

most people dont truly test their belayers ... they dont take whippers over and over again ... they dont take large whippers constantly ... etc ...

ironically those who DO test their belayers over and over again are likely to be hard sport climbers ... and if you didnt notice most of em use gri gris ...

let me ask MPers a simple question ... how many of you folks here take a deliberate whipper from the top bolt of the climb rather than clipping the chains

when im in good health and the fall is clean ... i almost always do ... especially in the gym ....

its valuable belayer practice IMO

;)

Locker wrote:"I always make sure that my first few routes or pitches with a new partner are soloable" Ditto! So it means we start on 4.1-

I like the way you think. :P

While at a gym many years ago, I found myself partnerless toward the end of the day which was not really an issue in an almost empty gym that I could wall traverse without inconveniencing anyone. However, after meeting and talking with another climber there by himself who seemed not only non-braindead but quite competent we decided to partner up for the rest of the day for some top ropes. Operating with what I later realized was great optimism, I took the first climb with him 'belaying'. Now this particular gym had a system whereby a Grigri was permanently affixed into the slab via a leash leaving the belayer with the simple task of facing the climber and pulling up on brake end of the rope.. simple enough, right? Wrong.

After exchanging the usual climber/belayer voice commands I began and finished the route without incident (aside from the normal grunting associated with me going up a 5.11). I reached the top of the route and called out with a resounding "On you", to which my belayer responded "Ok". 'Ok', I thought, 'Hmm, not really what I..' and at that moment, amidst my burning forearms and sewing machine right calf, a tiny little urge started to build to just look down to check the state of things back down on the ground level.. so I did just that.

As expected, there was a collection of rope on the floor equal to the distance I had climbed. Not expected was the belay device on the floor along with it and both his hands on the rope pulling down with what appeared to be an earnest attempt to hold my weight. It took a very small amount of time to assess my ability to downclimb a gym 5.11 at the end of a workout day in my current state with 'not likely' being the emphatic outcome. Next, I considered the likelihood of my ability to perform a 180 degree turn in mid-air after jumping off the wall, after which I would grab onto the rope behind me... also not good. So, naturally, I did the next best thing.. called out at the top of my lungs to the only staff member I knew by name. The next sequence of events went by like something out of a movie. The staff member came sprinting around the corner with superhero speed and, after quickly assessing the situation while running toward us, shoved my belayer two routes away. In less time than it took for her to get to me she managed to pull roughly 25 feet of slack through the Grigri. Actually, she didn't make it to 25 because after [involuntarily] letting go, I fell about 8 feet before coming to a stop. Between you all and me, that 8 feet was some of the most memorable air time I've ever experienced.

I don't recall saying much to that guy after that but I do remember not bothering to try and wash out those underwear. The dude just calmly walked over to the lockers changed into his street shoes and left without saying much of anything.

So yeah.. take nothing for granted. Talk and appearance are just that.. cheap.

bearbreeder wrote:ironically those who DO test their belayers over and over again are likely to be hard sport climbers ... and if you didnt notice most of em use gri gris ...

Which is still mostly used for convenience & the fact most sport falls are pretty safe. Do I need to remind you IFSC has forbidden grigris for comp belaying? If I absolutely need to give a good belay for a sketchy gear route (which isn't that often), the ATC comes out. It's that simple.

Speaking of bad belayers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeYCVX_Z6zo

reboot wrote: Which is still mostly used for convenience & the fact most sport falls are pretty safe. Do I need to remind you IFSC has forbidden grigris for comp belaying? If I absolutely need to give a good belay for a sketchy gear route (which isn't that often), the ATC comes out. It's that simple.

the IFSC world cup also has rope handlers that act as backup belayers ... do you?

nor do they hang dog on the the IFSC walls trying to work out the moves, nor do they need to boink up the rope ...

theres multiple parts to being a good "belayer" ... just because one is a "good" sports belayer doesnt mean that one is a good "trad" belayer on microgear ... and vice versa

a "good" belayer in all disciplines should be well versed in all the common devices used ... they should be able to walk up to the crag and use a gri gri for sport, or an ATC for trad depending on what their climber prefers ...

and use a munter for those times you simply dont have a device ... and be PRACTICED with it, as well as the MMO

most of the time i belay with my smart ... but whenever im with a partner that uses and ATC or a gri gri, ill use their device quite often simply to keep in practice ... and use munters on my own ropes ...

and practice catching on all of em

;)

Sometimes I go to the crag alone.

If I can't find a trustworthy belayer, I'll ask a random person to give me a ride home.

Jon Zucco wrote:Woodchuck -- I find your generalization of an entire generation to be a little harsh. Don't judge all of us based on those dick holes. But I see your point, and I appreciate it. I actually enjoy climbing with climbers of all genders, sizes, shapes, colors, and ages, and can usually find something (sometimes many things) to learn from each of them (even if the thing I learn is, "Never let that person belay you again, Jon. Never.")

Sadly times have changed, and it's getting worse in latter generations by comparison, percentage wise. Not to lump them all in there, but it's really changed alot in last 10 years.
As for the solution to all our belay problems...just go buy yourself a nice 60ft. autobelay, for 1800 bucks. Haul all 40 lbs of it up to the cliff, attach at top and you are on belay all day long to toprope.