Grip / Forearm Trainer

Cute hand-streches model!
Unfortunately my projects wouldn't qualify as warmups for her =p
I have successfully been de-railed

Grippers have little carryover if any. I have closed the COC #3 but it doesn't help climbing any.

Thick bar training makes for a generally stronger grip but not in a manner specific to climbing. But being all over stronger in the hands etc does have value during long days climbing.

Pinch training at different widths does carry over to pinching moves on climbs.

Levering helps quite a bit for crack climbing but not much for face.

High repetition wrist curls "may" increase vascularity over time - which could help with the dreaded pump. You can find writings both ways here.

Probably the greatest value from lifting weights etc is is working the opposite side of the hands and forearms for balanced strength across joints - in the long run this will lead to fewer injuries - either from overuse or catastrophic ones. Reverse wrist curls or opening the hands with rubber bands around the fingers are simple enough to add into a program.

I have been climbing for 30 years and doing something called Grip Sport for 10. Pretty much any targeted training will of course help somewhat. I am very familiar with most devices that might be used to develop finger - wrist and forearm strength. I have found only one machine that seems to actually target the hands in the same manner climbing does -
atomicathletic.com/store/in…

It's stupid expensive but I made my own a lot cheaper (I'm pretty handy).

Still the best training for climbing is going to be climbing and the hangboard is probably the best single development tool specific to our needs.

No doubt the single best way to get stronger hands is to lose body weight. It's still a strength per pound sport.

There is a gyro based exerciser originally called the dyna bee, Dick's had them for 19.99. The more you work it, the more the resistance increases. Just bought my third one last month. Incredible burn.

Chris Rice wrote:I have found only one machine that seems to actually target the hands in the same manner climbing does - atomicathletic.com/store/in…

Looks very impressive -- like a way improved climber-specific version of Titan's Telegraph Key.

Thanks so much for posting that suggestion.

Ken

Hmm I guess you're right slim: rice grips just strengthen the flexors of your fingers, not the actual contact strength. I see now they're more to be used in conjunction with a more strength oriented excersize to keep the flexors flexy, or something :D

kenr wrote: Looks very impressive -- like a way improved climber-specific version of Titan's Telegraph Key. Thanks so much for posting that suggestion. Ken

I thought the gadget looked pretty cool too. But couldn't you get the same effect by hanging a weight from a loop of rope, putting the tip of a finger in the loop, pointing your arm at the ground and then bending your finger? Or did I miss something in the set-up?

Nate Reno wrote: Ken, every other post of yours contains FDP/FDS/BLT/STD/ETC, do you have a link to a good diagram of all this crap so I can no longer be confused!

Lots of diagrams come up when I google "FDP muscle" or "FDS muscle", "DIP joint" etc.
but really it's fairly simple even without a diagram ...

• DIP joint = Distal Inter-Phalangeal = the 1st joint in from the tip of the finger. Driving this joint is critical for Open grip on small edges -- but this joint is locked out in the Crimp grip. (To me seems simpler to just call this "joint 1", but like with most important issues, nobody cares ...)
• PIP joint = Proximal Inter-Phalangeal = the 2nd joint in from the tip of the finger. Driving this joint is critical for the Crimp grip, also important for Open grip.
• MCP joint = MetaCarpal-Phalangeal = the 2nd joint in from the tip of the finger, which joins the individual finger to the shared "base" of palm of the hand. Driving the MCP is key for grabbing a big "bucket" (and for winning standard "grip strength" competitions with non-climbers). For smaller edges, holding the MCP angle stable is necessary to support a stable grip -- but this does not usually require maximum MCP-driver strength (which is why climbers do not win standard "grip strength" competitions).
• FDP = Flexor Digitorum Profundus = muscle + tendon which drives (mainly) both the DIP and PIP joints. So it is very critical for Open grip on smaller edges, but also helps with Crimp grips. The tendon runs through finger (with some "pulleys") and palm of hand, then the muscle is deep ("profundus") inside the forearm (closer to the palm side) ... and another tendon to attach to bone high on forearm by elbow.

Massage: One problem for training recovery is that it is difficult to massage the climbing-critical FDP muscle because it is deep under other muscles.

• FDS = Flexor Digitorum Superficialis = muscle + tendon which drives (mainly) the PIP joints. So it is very critical for Crimp grips, also for helping Open grips. The tendon runs through finger (with at least one "pulley") and palm of hand, then the muscle is near the surface ("superficialis") of the forearm (on the palm side) ... and another tendon to attach to bone high on forearm by elbow.

There are different specific muscles that mainly drive the MCP joint, but I normally don't remember their precise "medical Latin" names, ( just call them "MCP driver" muscles.

Ken

Mark E Dixon wrote: I thought the gadget [Atomic Athletic Aftermath Sniper] looked pretty cool too. But couldn't you get the same effect by hanging a weight from a loop of rope, putting the tip of a finger in the loop, pointing your arm at the ground and then bending your finger?

Yes you can, and I have a little travel sack full of short nylon+Dyneema sling loops, and hooks for performing that exercise -- I call it "finger curls".

some trickiness:

• When I get into these "finger curls" seriously, I need to use tape and gloves to protect the skin on my fingers. For me (and others) skin injury is critical limiter on training finger strength.

Possibly this AfterGrip Sniper device might be better -- though likely I'd still be using using tape and gloves. Advantage of "finger curls" over hangboard training is that I can freely wear full-finger gloves to protect skin.

• It's hard to know what Range of Motion I'm getting with "finger curls" when moving the weight up and down, because my eye are way above, staring down in roughly the line of up-and-down motion of the weight, so don't get good perspective to "triangulate" what distance the weight is moving up-and-down. Seems like the AfterGrip Sniper might offer a better view of the vertical distance that I'm moving the weight in each rep.
• I find it difficult to hold the base of my hand stable while doing the finger curls. It's easy to "cheat" by moving the base of my hand down a little instead of moving the weight upward. Or to dynamically adjust the base a little during the starting phase of the curl -- which might actually be a positive feature, for all I know.

Likely this AfterGrip Sniper would achieve more stable and precisely repeatable motions in workouts on separate days -- therefore more accurately carefully incremental intensity -- to confidentally take it close to the limit on training stress without going into injury.

• Looks like the Leverage ratio of the Atomic AfterGrip Sniper allows using fewer barbell weight plates to achieve the same resistance force at the fingertip.

Ken

Chris Rice wrote:Probably the greatest value from lifting weights etc is is working the opposite side of the hands and forearms for balanced strength across joints - in the long run this will lead to fewer injuries - either from overuse or catastrophic ones. Reverse wrist curls or opening the hands with rubber bands around the fingers are simple enough to add into a program.

This whole "antagonist" paradigm is getting questioned a lot lately. There are some knowlegdeable-sounding PTs who have posted to climbing forums that it makes little sense to do shoulder-press (or bench-press) exercises just because they're pushing as opposite to major pulling moves in climbing. I've never seen serious careful studies that demonstrate injury-prevention by antagonist exercise relative to primary-sport motions which are not explosive/plyometric (e.g. javelin-throwing, sprint-running).

Nevertheless I still do reverse wrist curls when I remember them. (I also do weighted wrist pronation/supination as "pre-hab" for elbow tendonitis).

The alternate "modern" PT paradigm seems to be to identify problematic injury-causing configurations (e.g. for shoulder moves with arms above head) and then prescribe precise strengthening exercises to enable the athlete to maintain a safe supporting configuration while performing the move. So in the last couple of years every intelligent climber-blog has a note about favorite shoulder-retraction exercises.

Although Metolius sells a squeeze-ball (for training finger-flexors) with integrated elastic loops (for training the "antagonist" finger-extensors), I haven't seen or heard of many smart climbers using it.

My biggest problem with the "antagonist" paradigm is that when I got precise about all the climbing articulations (especially shoulders), the sheer number of antagonist exercises (to be opposite to each possible climbing move) became overwhelming. I actually tried to perform them all, just gave up after a couple of workout days.

Having given up dumbblell Shoulder Press + dumbbell Bench Press with no problems for a couple of years, we'll see how long it is before I get brutally consistent and give up using precious training time on Reverse Wrist Curls.
(How can I justify doing RWCs if I'm not doing finger Extensors with elastics?)

Ken

kenr wrote: Lots of diagrams come up when I google "FDP muscle" or "FDS muscle", "DIP joint" etc. but really it's fairly simple even without a diagram ... * DIP joint = Distal Inter-Phalangeal = the 1st joint in from the tip of the finger. Driving this joint is critical for Open grip on small edges -- but this joint is locked out in the Crimp grip. (To me seems simpler to just call this "joint 1", but like with most important issues, nobody cares ...) * PIP joint = Proximal Inter-Phalangeal = the 2nd joint in from the tip of the finger. Driving this joint is critical for the Crimp grip, also important for Open grip. * MCP joint = MetaCarpal-Phalangeal = the 2nd joint in from the tip of the finger, which joins the individual finger to the shared "base" of palm of the hand. Driving the MCP is key for grabbing a big "bucket" (and for winning standard "grip strength" competitions with non-climbers). For smaller edges, holding the MCP angle stable is necessary to support a stable grip -- but this does not usually require maximum MCP-driver strength (which is why climbers do not win standard "grip strength" competitions). * FDP = Flexor Digitorum Profundus = muscle + tendon which drives (mainly) both the DIP and PIP joints. So it is very critical for Open grip on smaller edges, but also helps with Crimp grips. The tendon runs through finger (with some "pulleys") and palm of hand, then the muscle is deep ("profundus") inside the forearm (closer to the palm side) ... and another tendon to attach to bone high on forearm by elbow. Massage: One problem for training recovery is that it is difficult to massage the climbing-critical FDP muscle because it is deep under other muscles. * FDS = Flexor Digitorum Superficialis = muscle + tendon which drives (mainly) the PIP joints. So it is very critical for Crimp grips, also for helping Open grips. The tendon runs through finger (with at least one "pulley") and palm of hand, then the muscle is near the surface ("superficialis") of the forearm (on the palm side) ... and another tendon to attach to bone high on forearm by elbow. There are different specific muscles that mainly drive the MCP joint, but I normally don't remember their precise "medical Latin" names, ( just call them "MCP driver" muscles. Ken

Thanks Ken, I did end up looking up some diagrams, but your description helps quite a bit too.
Gets me wondering if I should focus hangboard workouts on specific finger/joint groups, and maybe add something for the whole MCP joint, since I don't do anything that focuses on this whatsoever (small holds on the hangboard). It seems to contribute to grabbing climbing holds, but may not be a point of failure. Say getting to a big jug rest, you could recover better if that joint system were better trained.

Todd Skinner showed me "finger curls" done with a barbell over 20 years ago - a good exercise that you can work up to way over bodyweight on. The barbell has the advantage of not making the skin a limiting factor. The Atomic grip machine lends itself to "two hands up - one hand down" negative work as well as whole hand or individual fingers work. I think the advantage to the machine over any other setup is going to be control.