Autobelay Death in Texas

Peter D. wrote:I remember hearing of a very prominent climber getting distracted while tying in, she had tied 1/2 the figure 8 threaded the rope threw the tie in loops of her harness when someone called to her. She was distracted enough to forget to finish tying the rest of the figure 8 and started climbing, no one checked her harness or knot. She had climb up a bit when the rope drag pulled the free end out her harness, fortunately she could grab a draw and clip into the bolt she was near

Actually it didn't end quite so happily. She took a 75' ground fall. May 9, 1989.

This is all a reminder of why it is so important to ingrain habits even if they feel silly sometimes, hence the checking ritual we all should do every time. With long time partners it may be subtly done, but the key points should be so ingrained that it feels weird not to do them and is noticeable, part of your preclimb focus. If any distractions are going on, start of day, end of day, tired, baked, in a rush, then the spiel is more pronounced. It is stupid to be embarrassed and think you will look like a noob. All professionals in high risk critical situations go through checklists. Before I start climbing I always grab my rope and pull it away from my harness and check the knot, visually check my belayer's set up and look them in the eye to make sure they are focused on me.

These auto- belay things cut a lot of that out, but the pulling the rope taut from your harness ritual would catch all of these screw-ups. How long does it take? One second.

Based on some of your replies, it sounds like this is a very common lapse of concentration. Wow. I will be extra careful next time I use an autobelay.

Peter D. wrote:TI remember hearing of a very prominent climber getting distracted while tying in, she had tied 1/2 the figure 8 threaded the rope threw the tie in loops of her harness when someone called to her.

Lynn Hill

M Sprague wrote:Before I start climbing I always grab my rope and pull it away from my harness and check the knot, visually check my belayer's set up and look them in the eye to make sure they are focused on me. These auto- belay things cut a lot of that out, but the pulling the rope taut from your harness ritual would catch all of these screw-ups. How long does it take? One second.

That's exactly what I do, and its become so automatic that its part of what I do when I'm clipped to an anchor, tied in, belaying somebody, or using the autobelay. Habits like this save lives, and they're much more universal than any particular belay technique.

I've seen the bad clip-in happen in a gym. A beginner was climbing an easy overhanging route. His belayer was belaying correctly. The climber fell and parted from the biner, falling about 25 feet onto his back. He had no injuries. The gym had a gravel bed covering the floor. No one had any idea how he was attached to the biner or how he became disconnected.

Will S wrote:I LOVE the autobelays. And our gym finally bought a couple this year. BUT, and this is a big "but", they are being used largely as a "babysitter" for n00bs that don't know how to belay, and children. I've already kept 3 different folks from bungling the clip-in (which is really, really hard to bungle, and I don't work there - just train). Kids clipping to the wrong place on the harness, or taking off with the gate not closed/with the harness just pinched between gate and biner...stuff like that. Myself and a few others will warmup or do intervals on them, but babysitting n00bs is what I see most. It really winds me up, because they are neglecting what has been THE prime instructional activity for gyms to new climbers...teaching them to belay safely. Now they just take their money and, "oh you don't know how to belay? Here's the autobelay".

Checked out the climbing wall at a local gym here and discovered this to be the case. For the most part the autobelays are set on the easiest routes on the wall. The wall itself was nice for it's size and I enjoyed it but it was very clearly setup as a 'babysitting' technique like you say. And I had the exact experience as you, there was one other person and we would just rotate around doing quick intervals on them and then what followed were noobs who were at times perplexed at even the idea of locking carabiner in use...

Overall I like them though for the freedom they allow, nice for 'running-laps'

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=33426

This thread makes me think of the story of The B17 and the way it changed how pilots approach aviation. flyaoamedia.com/aoa/what-th…

The takeaway is that you could look at the early accidents and say they were due to pilot forgetting critical tasks. You could say "pilots need to focus more!" or you could ask the question "How can we change this so we reduce the chance of human error?" Some people thought the plane was simply too complex to fly. A simple piece of paper changed all that.

It sounds like there is the exact same problems with auto-belay systems. Some people are saying it's human error and you just have to pay attention better. But clearly very experienced and by all accounts "safe" climbers can still make this mistake. And while it doesn't happen all the time, you could say it happens too much for what should be a low risk recreational activity.

So we need to start asking: How to we make auto-belay setups fool proof? Because it seems to me absolutely nobody should die trying to use these.

I know climbing has inherent risks, but that's out on the rock in the mountains where you can't control things. In a gym you should be able to eliminate sources of problems like this.

gtowey wrote:This thread makes me think of the story of The B17 and the way it changed how pilots approach aviation. flyaoamedia.com/aoa/what-th… The takeaway is that you could look at the early accidents and say they were due to pilot forgetting critical tasks. You could say "pilots need to focus more!" or you could ask the question "How can we change this so we reduce the chance of human error?" Some people thought the plane was simply too complex to fly. A simple piece of paper changed all that. It sounds like there is the exact same problems with auto-belay systems. Some people are saying it's human error and you just have to pay attention better. But clearly very experienced and by all accounts "safe" climbers can still make this mistake. And while it doesn't happen all the time, you could say it happens too much for what should be a low risk recreational activity. So we need to start asking: How to we make auto-belay setups fool proof? Because it seems to me absolutely nobody should die trying to use these. I know climbing has inherent risks, but that's out on the rock in the mountains where you can't control things. In a gym you should be able to eliminate sources of problems like this.

It already exists but gyms are too cheap to buy and install them. A gate that protrudes off the wall will stop all accidents. I have seen and used them. Waltopia has a version for their "Funtopia" walls.

Admittedly there's other factors at play to making them 100% safe for gyms, so if anyone is reading and wants more info go ahead and contact me.

Very sad. I'm pretty sure I've been to that gym, or if not a different facility of the same franchise when I visited family in Dallas. One thing that I will say is that they're very much into the ";idiot proof setup with Grigris, let's get people climbing right away"; mentality which is problematic IMO. Rather than tying in, people clip in using an auto locker connected to a figure 8 on a bight, and there was no belay test, just a quick ";here's how to belay"; lesson. While it's nice because people can walk in and immediately start climbing and belaying their friends, I wonder if they lose an appreciation for the basic mechanics of a safety system.

This is why I'm also opposed to the latest "hang a Grigri from every toprope" trend in gyms. If you don't know how to thread a Grigri, you have no business belaying me.

M Sprague wrote:I hate those bloody things. A gym loaded with them is a bad sign to me. That is one of the reasons I will drive to Boston, Worcester or even NH to go to a gym rather than to the one in RI pictured above, which is about 20 minutes from me (along with bad route setting and a funky toyland feeling in general).

I'd tend to agree, but I've only been to couple of gyms that use them so take my sample size into account. Two I visited, and the other I was a member of for four years. Bad route setting was almost a given at that home gym sporting the auto belays.

Plugging the kids in and ignoring was a very popular use. And then you wind up with this disjointed scene where people who could be belaying each other and meeting potential climbing partners are plugged into their ipod and douching off in their own universe, frowning at those who would dare enter their auto-sphere.

Autobelays wrote:https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=33426

too bad they couldnt actually say what the complaint was.

Hate to admit it, but I too have failed to clip in at BRC in Boulder. It was upstairs on one of the short cracks and luckily I realized it within 10-15 feet or so (about halfway up on those routes). It was a pretty good scare. I still like the autobelays, though, because I can get in some gym time when my partners aren't available. Now, I have reverted very deliberately to what I do outdoors--look at my harness and check the knot before climbing--or the autobelay in this case. Lots of pretty "dumb" things have happened to some pretty smart people (see Lynn Hill above), so no one is immune.

gtowey wrote:And while it doesn't happen all the time, you could say it happens too much for what should be a low risk recreational activity.

That's the issue. Climbing isn't a low risk recreational activity, regardless of which discipline you practice. People say bouldering is safer than trad climbing. I've seen significantly more people get injured from bouldering than from trad climbing.

Some things can make climbing safer to an extent, such as lowering biners at anchors, but nothing can make climbing safe. Any time you leave the ground you assume the risk that you may not come back down in one piece.

eli poss wrote: That's the issue. Climbing isn't a low risk recreational activity, regardless of which discipline you practice. People say bouldering is safer than trad climbing. I've seen significantly more people get injured from bouldering than from trad climbing. Some things can make climbing safer to an extent, such as lowering biners at anchors, but nothing can make climbing safe. Any time you leave the ground you assume the risk that you may not come back down in one piece.

But you're kind of just proving my point. It's too easy to simply say "climbing is dangerous! That's what you get!" Climbing OUTSIDE is dangerous because there are so many things you can't control.

But inside a gym? On a top rope autobelay system? That is literally insane to me that someone would die in that environment.

gtowey wrote: But you're kind of just proving my point. It's too easy to simply say "climbing is dangerous! That's what you get!" Climbing OUTSIDE is dangerous because there are so many things you can't control. But inside a gym? On a top rope autobelay system? That is literally insane to me that someone would die in that environment.

By expecting climbing to be safer or even safe indoors, you have made yourself vulnerable to human error by becoming complacent, whether consciously or subconsciously. Also, we don't make climbing safer by controlling variables; we make it safer by adapting our behavior to manage such variables.

eli poss wrote: By expecting climbing to be safer or even safe indoors, you have made yourself vulnerable to human error by becoming complacent, whether consciously or subconsciously. Also, we don't make climbing safer by controlling variables; we make it safer by adapting our behavior to manage such variables.

the kid is right

eli poss wrote: By expecting climbing to be safer or even safe indoors, you have made yourself vulnerable to human error by becoming complacent, whether consciously or subconsciously. Also, we don't make climbing safer by controlling variables; we make it safer by adapting our behavior to manage such variables.

Do you drive without a seatbelt because it encourages complacency? Ride a motorcycle without a helmet?

What I'm super curious to know, is why Autobelays joined MP, just to post two links on two old threads? With no explanation or comments? Are/were you connected with the company?