Climbing without health insurance.

Whoa slow your roll there SeaBiscuit.

Don’t you think it’s a tad bit hypocritical you:

a) Made a conscious decision to go climbing without health insurance. Even if this originally wasn’t a conscious decision it was when your co-worker backed out due to the same set of circumstances.
b)

Chris S wrote:shattered my tib/fib in a simple, tired, tripped up moment.

Sounds completely self-induced.
c)

Chris S wrote:And I was completely screwed.

Is this a pun? If so props for keeping positive. Nothing hypocritical about being funny.
d)

Chris S wrote:I found myself with thousands of dollars in medical bills, and no insurance to cover for it.

Wait for it…..
e)

Chris S wrote:I asked each billing (airlift, ambulance, hospital, doctors) for charitable aid - my annual income was around 25k back then. They all cut there bills 50-80% for me.

It’s “their” not there or they’re, but I digress…. Wait for it….
f)

Chris S wrote:I know that what I was discounted is spread out to those who do have insurance, or pay their medical bills directly.

Wait for it…..
g)

Chris S wrote:Do anything that voluntarily exposes you to greater risk of injury or death without mitigating it with insurance is personally and socially irresponsible, in my opinion. If you choose to do so and do get hurt, I won't be contributing to any fundraising to pay your medical bills - since I already will be the next time I need to see the doctor.

And “there” is the kicker folks. Do you see the hypocrisy in asking for “Charitable Aid,” after your “Socially Irresponsible,” choice and then making statements like “I won’t be contributing….” The AAC even covered your ass (at least partially), have some sense of community man. Oh and your non contribution to the climbing community is so much better than your monthly contribution to corporate greed? I fucking dare you to make those same remarks to any of our fellow fallen climbers or to “their” loved ones in need.

Chris S wrote:I still have the plate and screws in my ankle today.

Mine are in a cute little bag, and only cost 35k. Not to mention I wasn’t allowed to bear weight on said tib/fib destruction for 6 months. Didn’t do it climbing, but I had insurance so I guess that point is moot either way.

Chris S wrote:Do anything that voluntarily exposes you to greater risk of injury or death without mitigating it with insurance is personally and socially irresponsible, in my opinion.

BTW getting in your car accomplishes this pretty well…. Oh shit car insurance too!? WTF that’s half my paycheck already.

MERICA!!!

D.Buffum wrote: It's true that there's a stay, but banks can and do move the bankruptcy court to allow the foreclosure to proceed, and it is usually granted so long as the foreclosure action precedes the bankruptcy. Not always, but often. So while it is sort of true that "you can't loose your house for a medical debt," when the process shakes out, many, many people do loose their homes because of medical debt. There are lots of procedures that you might be able to maneuver to save your home, but the bottom line is that most people in this situation are unable to do so, and homes are frequently lost.

Yeah, unfortunately the kind of people who are gonna have very little equity in their house are usually also the kind of people who are gonna be uneducated and not understand the importance of meeting deadlines in the legal system, hiring a good bankruptcy attorney, etc..They may not even have enough to pay the retainer.

I think in general, someone who's got 100k of equity in their house, reasonably intelligent and disciplined, has a good attorney, etc is not gonna have too many problems holding on to that equity by using the homestead exemption..Of course, even those people can kind of lose it physically and mentally when all the crappy medical stuff starts going down and end up in the same position as the first group.

Soon (January) you will have the option of buying insurance thru the govt run exchanges (with or without subsidy depending on income), receiving insurance through your employer, obtaining
Medicaid or going bare and paying a penalty. The penalty will initially be quite low. Medicare benefits to the elderly and disabled will be trimmed to help pay the subsidies. New taxes are in the law to help pay.
There will be a strong trend among the young and healthy to forgo insurance and pay the penalty. Premiums (for young people especially) will be generally high since plans must accept all those with preexisting conditions. Subsidies will assist many. Theoretically those voluntarily uninsured can pay the penalty, and snap up insurance only when illness strikes, which is presently the biggest weakness of the future solvency of this approach.

I predict the taxpayer and the responsible premium payer will bear the burden of expense for a while, then the system will evolve or devolve into a Canadian or more likely British (two tier) single payer system.

Greg D wrote:I am glad I was able to provide you with ammunition to make some generic statements. I suspect you are young based on name calling alone.although there are other indicators. I'll spare you my numbers. You'd see that it is possible to be way ahead. Keep your mind closed and continue to be a sheeple. Btw, nobody can take your house based on a debt, not even the iR$.

I'll let the guy at my work who lost his house after cancer treatments know this. It should make him feel better.

Chris S wrote: Do anything that voluntarily exposes you to greater risk of injury or death without mitigating it with insurance is personally and socially irresponsible, in my opinion. If you choose to do so and do get hurt, I won't be contributing to any fundraising to pay your medical bills - since I already will be the next time I need to see the doctor.

You make the assumption that life is as simple as buying insurance or not buying insurance. Maybe if you are making $50,000 a year it is. But for those who are underemployed (i.e. a large portion of America) it is not that simple because the difference between paying $300 a month for non-subsidized health insurance or not paying it could easily be the difference between a manageable income structure and an emergency.

Consider college students. They are paying out of the ass to go to school to better themselves and most of them dont make shit at their part-time jobs--$7.25 an hour all day, no benefits. Well, thanks to the extreme capitalist structure we currently live in, not only do our college students have to pay $300 a month for health insurance if they want it, but $4 a gal for fuel, expensive food, car insurance, $1000 a month for a shitty studio apartment, blah, blah, on and on.

My point is that America's extreme for-profit attitude has morphed our society into one in which only those with money are welcome. The cost of living has risen so much relative to the average household income that it is not possible to live on anything less than $14 an hour without cutting back on necessaries, such as health insurance.

Of course, if one is making less than $14 an hour, it is because s/he doesn't have a degree and is not motivated to better him or herself, right? Not exactly. There are people with master's degrees who are making minimum wadge. Because of a heavy supply of American workers, employers now want everyone to be overqualifed AND they want to pay their workers less for being overqualified.

So sorry, but your oversimplified "just buy health insurance or don't cry" attitude is silly. Too many people don't even get to make that choice.

Peter Jackson wrote: My wife needed an MRI this year for an ankle injury (running, not climbing) and since we've got a HDHP, we shopped around and asked for the paid-in-full-today rate. Ended up saving 60%. If you need an expensive medical procedure, ask the provider for a discount, and explain why. More often than not, it works.

Hahah, the funny thing is that "discount" you are getting is actually the opposite. It's a price markup. In order to understand why you have to understand how medical billing works. The medical field is pretty much the only field in which the price is actually dictated by the buyer and not the seller. When you go to the hospital the hospital will furnish your insurance company with an itemized bill. Let's use an example, say a CT scan, in which the hospital will try to bill $500 for. Well, when the insurance company gets that bill they look at their records to determine how much they pay for a CT scan. Normally it is about 15% of the asking price. So the insurance company will then reply that they only pay, say, $50 for CT scans and the hospital can take the money or leave it.

Well, in most markets the seller (the hospital) would say forget it. But the problem is in the medical field, nearly EVERYTHING is paid for by insurance, even minor office visits. That means if a hospital refuses to accept payment from an insurance company, they would likely go under.

Accordingly, because the price the hospital receives for a particular operation is a function of what the insurance company is willing to pay and NOT what the hospital wants to charge, the hospital has to inflate the bills in an effort to maximize their profits.

Let's go back to the CT scan for $500. The insurance company will only pay $50 max for a CT scan, but if the hospital only asks for $40, then they will only get $40. The insurance company is obviously not going to pay more than the asking price. Therefore the hospital has to SEVERELY overinflate the bill so as to guarantee they will ALWAYS max out the insurance company's payment for each individual itemized item even though the hospital knows it will never receive that much money for a particular operation.

And THAT is exactly why healthcare is expensive. It is not because the care is actually expensive. It is not because hobos are using the ER without insurance. It is none of that crap. It is expensive because of the game that insurance companies and hospitals play.

So going back to your discount idea. You may think you are getting a 60% discount, but the truth is that the doctor or hospital that is billing you set the prices with the intention that they are only going to get a fraction of their asking price, so by paying 40% of the asking price you are actually paying more than the doctor or hospital would normally receive, thus you are getting ripped off. A 80% "discount" is an appropriate price for hospital services as Medicare and most insurance companies never pay more than 20% of the asking price, and in most cases they only pay 15% or less.

Anyone that really wants to know how healthcare costs work should watch this video:

truecostofhealthcare.org/vi…

Ryan Kempf wrote:Whoa slow your roll there SeaBiscuit...And “there” is the kicker folks. Do you see the hypocrisy in asking for “Charitable Aid,” after your “Socially Irresponsible,” choice and then making statements like “I won’t be contributing….” The AAC even covered your ass (at least partially), have some sense of community man. Oh and your non contribution to the climbing community is so much better than your monthly contribution to corporate greed? I fucking dare you to make those same remarks to any of our fellow fallen climbers or to “their” loved ones in need.

Hi Ryan-

Good points - I certainly don't mean to be hypocritical, only trying to demonstrate that I was irresponsible, and I learned my lesson. I didn't ask my friends and family to help me cover the financial costs of my irresponsibility, but if I hadn't asked the airlift, the ambulance, the hospital, and the doctors to reduce my bill, I would still be making payments today. Even the traumatic health insurance policy that started a week later would have helped.

It bothers me that people make a conscious decision to climb without insurance, get hurt, and then ask for the community to help with the cost.

I completely agree that our health care system is the weakest in the modern world. I'd much rather prefer a single-payer system like Canada's or a required-insurance system like Switzerland's (which is the direction that I think we're going - now we just need to agree on a basic coverage plan to be not-for-profit).

In civilized countries that put their citizens first such as the UK volunteer mountain rescue teams are located all over the country ..In the mountain areas such as the Lake District ,Wales and Scotland there are several volenteer teams that are kept very busy..much more so than in the US. All rescues are free of charge this includes free helicopter rides (by the Roal Air Force) for the seriously hurt to the appropriate hospital back/head injuries etc. Of course all hospital treatment when they arrive is also free of charge.I have even heard of the odd American hiker that has broken a leg .. rescued taken to a UK hospital fixed up ..and were amazed when they were told no charge..The US can afford lots of rockets to fire at various countries ...perhaps it would be nicer to spend a bit on health care for its stressed out hard up citizens.

20 kN wrote:So going back to your discount idea. You may think you are getting a 60% discount, but the truth is that the doctor or hospital that is billing you set the prices with the intention that they are only going to get a fraction of their asking price, so by paying 40% of the asking price you are actually paying more than the doctor or hospital would normally receive, thus you are getting ripped off.

Actually it was 60% off the negotiated rate with my insurance company to pay in full same day. I called to verify the R&C amount before calling for the MRI.

Chris S wrote: It bothers me that people make a conscious decision to climb without insurance, get hurt, and then ask for the community to help with the cost..

It bothers me that people make a conscious decision to eat fast food, get diabetes, then ask the community to help with the cost.

David Sahalie wrote: It bothers me that people make a conscious decision to eat fast food, get diabetes, then ask the community to help with the cost.

This is almost exactly my point. Thanks DS, I was to overcome with internet tough guy rage to communiacte it clearly lol.

Chris S wrote: Hi Ryan- Good points.

Chris thanks for being a good sport. Was wound up when I typed that, by both your wording and a couple external factors.

Carry on

Peter Jackson wrote: Actually it was 60% off the negotiated rate with my insurance company to pay in full same day. I called to verify the R&C amount before calling for the MRI.

Ah, I thought you meant 40% off the full billing price. In that case you did get a deal. :) I just dont understand why more hospitals dont offer "insurance rates" to the uninsured. I mean, they know that the price they are asking is nearly never the price they will get from an insurance company, so why are they okay with that if it is coming from an insurance company but not a private individual? Plus, by actually offering affordable care they might actually get their bill paid. An uninsured is far more likely to give the hospital the finger and never pay a cent on their bill if their bill is astronomically unaffordable. If the hospital offered the same "discounts" to the public, more uninsured people would actually pay their bills.

Just tell the doc you have your Obamacare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargemaster

20 kN wrote:I just dont understand why more hospitals dont offer "insurance rates" to the uninsured.

It's a good question. A corollary, and one of the things that always surprises me, is that when discussing treatment options, it's rare to find a provider who can tell you what the procedure they're suggesting actually costs. We always ask, and it usually takes at least 15 minutes to find someone who knows the answer. And even then, it's usually the wrong answer.

Peter Jackson wrote: It's a good question. A corollary, and one of the things that always surprises me, is that when discussing treatment options, it's rare to find a provider who can tell you what the procedure they're suggesting actually costs. We always ask, and it usually takes at least 15 minutes to find someone who knows the answer. And even then, it's usually the wrong answer.

That is because doctors do not charge patients directly for healthcare services. Often they dont even have employees that do it. They work with third parties that basically just write huge bills to the doctors' patients and try to get their patients' insurance companies to pay out as much as possible. Accordingly, since doctors dont really set their own prices and normally their staff dont either, they dont really know how much their patients pay for their services. Just another way the system is so jacked.

Tyler Tylerson wrote:Just tell the doc you have your Obamacare.

Well, as of yet that that is not a real thing per se. The Affordable Healthcare act is not a universal insurance policy for everyone like Canada's system. Rather it is a set of laws that supposedly make it easier for everyone to afford insurance, although the jury is still out on whether it will actually do that or not. But regardless if it makes insurance less expensive or not, lowering the price of something that is expensive does not necessary make it affordable, just less expensive.

David Sahalie wrote: It bothers me that people make a conscious decision to eat fast food, get diabetes, then ask the community to help with the cost.

dont hate on the fatties Dave, it wont be long until they have us outnumbered in the USofA.

USBRIT wrote:In civilized countries that put their citizens first such as the UK volunteer mountain rescue teams are located all over the country ..In the mountain areas such as the Lake District ,Wales and Scotland there are several volenteer teams that are kept very busy..much more so than in the US. All rescues are free of charge this includes free helicopter rides (by the Roal Air Force) for the seriously hurt to the appropriate hospital back/head injuries etc. Of course all hospital treatment when they arrive is also free of charge.I have even heard of the odd American hiker that has broken a leg .. rescued taken to a UK hospital fixed up ..and were amazed when they were told no charge..The US can afford lots of rockets to fire at various countries ...perhaps it would be nicer to spend a bit on health care for its stressed out hard up citizens.

None of that is free.