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Tying into rope through carabiner
Edward Pyune wrote:I was asked about the safety of my system when someone noticed that instead of tying the rope directly into my harness, I put a locking carabiner on the figure 8 on a bight backed up with a fisherman's which I clip into my belay loop. He questioned both the use of the carabiner as well as clipping into the belay loop instead of the tie-in points on my harness. I do this when we have a group of 3+ sport climbing and we are constantly swapping the rope around (huge time saver, I know), and I just want to see what you guys think. I can see that there is a minor problem with using the carabiner in the sense that it would make the system a bit weaker, as it would be the weakest link in the chain, as well as the chance that the carabiner opening being possible, but I don't think it's that huge of a deal. I was also under the understanding that a good rule of thumb is to use fabric through both tie-in points and metal through the belay loop. From what I heard, the belay loop is actually the strongest part of the harness, in terms of strength as well as being able to equalize the force of the pull onto your tie-in points better than if you clipped a biner into them, since the biner is rigid. So whats the deal? Am I gunadie? Time saver? What, 3 seconds? Just tie in properly... |
Mark Pilate wrote:... I would suggest that the "safest" thing That Ed should do is use the bowline instead of the 8 if multiple people weighting the rope is his main gripe and reason for cutting corners on the tie in. Now you've gone and done it! |
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We need a system like stackexchange.com to ask these questions. That way we can downvote all of you people who don't understand that the length of dynamic rope between the climber and the belay point is what absorbs energy, not the carabiner or the knot or whatever else. Go read about fall factors and dynamic ropes. You clear don't understand the system that saves your life in a lead fall. |
boulderkeith wrote:We need a system like stackexchange.com to ask these questions. That way we can downvote all of you people who don't understand that the length of dynamic rope between the climber and the belay point is what absorbs energy, not the carabiner or the knot or whatever else. Go read about fall factors and dynamic ropes. You clear don't understand the system that saves your life in a lead fall. To the person who posted the uiaa pdf, that was awesome. Thank you. Here it is again if you missed it: theuiaa.org/upload_area/fil… The contribution I'd like to make to this thread is the psuedo legitimate time-saving reason someone might add the cross-loading risk of clipping in with double locked carabiners to their system. Doing this without using doubled lockers is silly. If you are leading a long route with a 2nd who will never lead and you are a tidy leader at your belay station, you have a 2nd who arrives at the belay station and all the rope is stacked for them to lead. Not need to restack. Except you aren't swapping leads. So you can: a) restack the rope across them (leash, tie-in point, whatever). This is super time consuming. b) swap rope ends by both untying and re-tying in: easy at a ledge, can be a challenge at a crowded hanging two bolt belay). Also requires that you trust your leash system. Some people don't (then why do you carry it?). c) swap ropes via carabiners: cross-loading! Note: the issue is not where you stack the rope. Even if you have a rope keeping widget, the wrong end is on top. Personally, I just swap ends. You get fast at tying in over the years. If you can't safely leash in at an anchor, I think you have other issues. But I'd love to be able to just clip and unclip but I also don't want to lead fall on cross-loaded carabiners. No one mentioned this application so I thought I would. Wow! You're advocating that both climbing partners UNTIE from the rope at the anchors on multipitch climbs for rope management purposes?!? That's insane and unnecessary. Rope management at the anchors is pretty trivial once you get some practice with it... the rope can be draped with incrementally shorter loops during the climb in such a way that it is a one-motion 'flop' to get the right end ready for the next leader. Even if you stack it onto a ledge, we're talking about a single motion (pancake flip) to get the right end ready for re-leading. |
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This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.
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BoulderKeith- You succeeded in being partially right, mostly wrong, and 100% confusing all at once....quite the feat! :) |
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This is one of the worst threads I've seen. Ok let me break it down for you intro level climbers making your way out of the gym and into the big kid world. #1; the idea is to eliminate points of failure in your system! Therefore, you tie directly into your harness. #2; the idea of making it easy to get on and off rope is for carnival walls. #3; nylon is dynamic on your harness and your rope, a carabiner is not. #4; if on tr or lead and you're belaying your partner and taking in slack the carabiener can move and be gate loaded or side loaded, it's weakest point, usually 7kn, do you know what that means? |
mike sheridan wrote:This is one of the worst threads I've seen. Ok let me break it down for you intro level climbers making your way out of the gym and into the big kid world. #1; the idea is to eliminate points of failure in your system! Therefore, you tie directly into your harness. #2; the idea of making it easy to get on and off rope is for carnival walls. #3; nylon is dynamic on your harness and your rope, a carabiner is not. #4; if on tr or lead and you're belaying your partner and taking in slack the carabiener can move and be gate loaded or side loaded, it's weakest point, usually 7kn, do you know what that means? #5; get a professional lesson or stay in the gym! hmmmmm ... so how does the middle man in a glacier team usually tie in ... |
PosiDave wrote:Never tie in to the belay loop. Single point connection that will end your life just because you wanted to save a minute. If you wanna toprope on it atleast rig some sort of backup to your top point (Webbing or add a 8mm cord as a backup belay. plenty of climbers have died from wearing out belay loops. do you belay off your tie in loops? |
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Rope management at the anchors is pretty trivial once you get some practice with it... the rope can be draped with incrementally shorter loops during the climb in such a way that it is a one-motion 'flop' to get the right end ready for the next leader. Even if you stack it onto a ledge, we're talking about a single motion (pancake flip) to get the right end ready for re-leading. Furthermore, you should be anchored with the rope (clove hitch into master point) for multipitch climbs, not a daisy chain or leash. dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/h… |
mike sheridan wrote:This is one of the worst threads I've seen. Ok let me break it down for you intro level climbers making your way out of the gym and into the big kid world. #1; the idea is to eliminate points of failure in your system! Therefore, you tie directly into your harness. #2; the idea of making it easy to get on and off rope is for carnival walls. #3; nylon is dynamic on your harness and your rope, a carabiner is not. #4; if on tr or lead and you're belaying your partner and taking in slack the carabiener can move and be gate loaded or side loaded, it's weakest point, usually 7kn, do you know what that means? #5; get a professional lesson or stay in the gym! Mike, #4 is spot on and exactly why a lot of people on this thread think using a carabiner to clip in is wrong. |
bearbreeder wrote: do you belay off your tie in loops? in a high factor fall you belay loop will see a whole SHIETload of force ... makes no sense to insist on to scream about belay loops on the climber side without screaming about em on the belayers side as well inspect your gear ... and retire it when needed ... if you cant do that you shouldnt be climbing belay loops ARE redundant if you loop at the construction youll see it ;) Bear breeder, |
boulderkeith wrote: Bear breeder, If you are climbing on a dynamic rope, none of these things should see a shitload of force: - your belay loop - your body - the carabiner and piece catching the fall - and the falling climber and his various widgets. That's the whole point of the dynamic rope. To pick a rope at random, a Beal Diablo 10.2 mm should, by the UIAA test (which is a relatively severe fall), only impact your harness 8.3 kN. Yes, as the rope ages, that number will go up but then most falls are not as severe as UIAA falls (IIRC FF 1.7). That's a not a trivia amount of force but it is an amount of force our bodies, harnesses, and protection absorb well. which is my point exactly ... |
bearbreeder wrote: use 2 opposed lockers on the clip in from the fig 8 bight to your belay loop and it wont fail I agree. |
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And no biners reduces the chances of failure even further... |
Mark Pilate wrote:And no biners reduces the chances of failure even further... . i dont think lynn hill or john long used a biner when they screwed up their tie ins ... never mind any of us less mortals ;) Mark Pilate wrote: 2. Other practices of festooning your belay loop with additional biners may mitigate the cross-load concern, but then also start to negate the original purpose - quick changeovers I'll bet 8/10 times while Bearbreeder is still fiddle-fucking with stuck gates on his opposed double lockers, I'll have tied in correctly, led the pitch, and be jerking on the rope for him to hurry his ass up. how long does it take YOU to clip in 2 lockers ... maybe it would take you that long =P |
bearbreeder wrote: i dont think lynn hill or john long used a biner when they screwed up their tie ins ... never mind any of us less mortals ;) how long does it take YOU to clip in 2 lockers ... maybe it would take you that long =P theres a time and place for everything ... ill repeat it again so that even YOU understand ... theres no REALISTIC way youre anymore likely to die off 2 opposed lockers than a regular tie in its that simple ... ;) I have climbed with John Long and numerous other professional of former-professional climbers and can say that climbing 5.14 does not make you a safe climber. Some of the sketchiest people out there are guys who climb really hard. They get some ridiculous notion that because they have been in the game so long that there is no way "it could happen to me," and so they get lazy and cut corers. I would bet that John Long did not execute a partner check in accordance with the gym's regulations when he got injured. If he did, his partner would have caught the issue. Also, I suspect that if someone did a formal study on what type of climber is least likely to get injured from a "noob mistake," advanced climbers would not top the list. My guess is it would be the intermediate class because they are experienced enough to know right from wrong, but not so experienced that they have become lazy and take short cuts. |
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It's very common to tie in two lockers with a figure8 on a bite when leading on walls in blocks, so the leaders rope always can be on top.. Avoids reflacking every time .. Also it's used to tie in the middle of the rope with a butterfly, especially occurring on glacier travel.. |
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do you cats re-tie the fig on a bight each time? i'm a tie in kinda guy, but whatever tickles your pickle. i guess the only thing in my feeble mind is the surface area to impact force ratio of a rounded carabiner(or 2) as opposed to 2 3/4" webbing loops if you fall on the same knot a few times without switching up the impact points every now and then. |
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Thought this horse was a skeleton by now, but its a slow day.... |
