Estimating vs. Measuring Rap Distances

craghead wrote:I rely on beta provided in the guide book , or that I collect at the base of the crag by talking to other climbers or eye estimating the route. Lately we have been climbing a lot with 60 m twins which makes it easier to rap a route in general. For longer routes or for routes with a lot of rope eating flakes and or trees it's adviseable to use a single rope rap. I tie an autoblock and a knot at the end of both rope ends to go down first as I scout for rap stations and/or trees. Rope is marked in the middle of course. In case of an "overshot" I ascend the rope using the autoblock for in search of better rap options.

Thank you for answering a question that wasn't asked. So glad you could join us elanor.

Letting the leader know " half way" is also one of the methods in anticipation of potential rap route. I don't per say " measure it" . Climbing is an applied science and a lot of things are going on in leader's and belayer's heads from start to finish. That said, planning for rap vs walk off / retreat starts from the getgo, and adding another gaget to the system is not feasable.

A couple of clarifications: I wasn't serious about mandating all rappel distances to be 34 +/- 1 meter. And I'm totally on-board with using your head about rappelling and assuming the responsibility to deal with coming up short one day.

Switching back to this:

John Wilder wrote:And all manufacturers cut differently, sometimes even in the same brand!

I once had access to a rope measurer and a bunch of climbing ropes through a climbing organization.

I don't know how many of these ropes might have had a section cut off due to damage. No doubt, some did and probably many did not. Also for sure is that the ages and amount of use of these ropes varied greatly. And the ropes hadn't been climbed on for at least a few days (i.e., these were un-stretched measurements)

The data implies a 4 meter spread for a "60 meter" rope.

WARNING. THREAD DRIFT AHEAD!

How about some stories of epics due to miscalculations on rappels.

A few years ago, we topped out on Castleton about the same time as another party. After chatting and enjoying the view we decided to all go down on the raps together. This is supposed to be two double rope raps to get off the 350' tower down the vertical north side. I went first. When the next set of anchors came in to view, it appeared that the ropes were not going to reach. I saw another set of anchors about 30 feet higher that I had just passed. I decided to do some shenanigans to get back up to them even though this may have added another rap to our descent and delayed our descent a few minutes. Then, a guy from the other party came down. When he saw me he decided to go for the next set of anchors which I didn't think were reachable. As he got closer to the anchors it was clear he wasn't going to reach, or at least so I thought. With only enough rope remaining in his rap device to hold on with his left hand (about six inches) he reaches way out with his right hand, arm stretched to the max, just barely clips his leash to a bolt, and lets go of the rope as it slides through his device. He kind of stumbles onto the ledge as all of his weight goes onto the bolt. Not quite a factor 2, but super sketch nonetheless. Turns out, it was only one more double rope rap to the ground from the anchors I was at. So, his sketch ball maneuver had no benefit anyway.

Good thing our ropes stretched 3.1415926 meters.

Super spooky, Greg D.

Epic rap, although not quite so spooky:

We followed a party of four down what was assumed to be a rap that could be done on double 70 meter ropes in one go. It was after a long route, well past sunset and so hard to see the distance to the ground. The party of four included a boulderer, a sport climber, one leader with multi-pitch experience, and his partner who only followed. To be fair, the rap routes had changed since the description of the original one (now corrected).

Their leader passed up some ledge-less rap bolts at ~35 meters. At about 50 meters, he veered off to the side to a ledge with a tree and anchored - reascending the rope may have been the better option. He than let everyone rap to him in the darkness without explaining the situation.

While I was rapping last, my sister calls up "Bill, Don't pass up those rap bolts. We're not out of the woods yet."

To make a long story short, I re-rigged the rap to the ledge-less bolts and only then did the double-70's reach the ground. Due to the pendulum for everyone else, it was a long process to get everyone down to the ground and start the hike out - involved using another rope to retrieve the rap strands after each rap.

Got back into camp around 2 AM. Made "dinner" and then went to bed around 4 AM.

Greg G wrote:One thing that irk's me is how Rap's aren't measured in METERS. Why would you list a rappel in Feet when our ropes are measured in Meters?! Obviously after years of climbing and rappelling we've all learned to guesstimate rap lengths, and convert. But that still irks me.

++1

Greg G wrote:One thing that irk's me is how Rap's aren't measured in METERS. Why would you list a rappel in Feet when our ropes are measured in Meters?! Obviously after years of climbing and rappelling we've all learned to guesstimate rap lengths, and convert. But that still irks me.

you are right - the world is so inconsiderate and just rude!

I carry a tape measure on my harness next to my bee keeper hood.

Ray Pinpillage wrote:I carry a tape measure on my harness next to my bee keeper hood.

it's all the rage! hahaha i got my tat kit too! and a can of the japón spray! hehehe

I never estimate my distance in the rap game,
To me gettin' down always be the same, mad tame.

My concern is sending ground up on some gnar son,
Some wicked vert shit, you know I'm a get it done.

I spray the most about noobs and lost gear and 'bout getting paid
Cold brews for loot & stuck booty I done gone and slayed.

Mad props to da young kids pulling hard that shit is dope to the bone yo!
Lose that wack steez with the beanie and no shirt like only yo head be cold, tho

Peace out MP, I'm done spittin' dope rhymes, back to spraying about shit like bolting crimes.

Clifton Santiago wrote:I never estimate my distance in the rap game, To me gettin' down always be the same, mad tame. My concern is sending ground up on some gnar son, Some wicked vert shit, you know I'm a get it done. I spray the most about noobs and lost gear and 'bout getting paid Cold brews for loot & stuck booty I done gone and slayed. Mad props to da young kids pulling hard that shit is dope to the bone yo! Lose that wack steez with the beanie and no shirt like only yo head be cold, tho Peace out MP, I'm done spittin' dope rhymes, back to spraying about shit like bolting crimes.

this is beautiful.

s.price wrote: Not even mighty Google can provide an accurate measurement. Finishing label approval for the whiskey. Woodshed Distilling is finally a reality. Year and a half of paperwork and approval process. Aiming for shelves in July/August.

Great! Be sure to announce it here, and send me a pm too as I'm in and out of this place.

If your not 100% sure both ends of your rope are touching ground or the next rap station tie a safety knot a couple feet from either end of the rope. Then know how to ascend the rope again if you need to. That's about as good as it gets.

craghead wrote: this is beautiful.

Took the wind right out of this geek-sters sails.