2:1 Haul Setup - Rate my rigging

Good points on the Revolvers.

My other submission to potentially lighten your system. Consider the Petzl ULTRALEGERE. I'm betting it's too light duty or inefficient for this application. Cost a mere $5, weighing in at 10g, and might be useful to someone looking for the absolute lightest configuration. At the very least, a semi-effective backup for the primary system. I suspect it's downfall will be the difficulty keeping the rope tracking through the pulley during operation.

Craig Childre wrote:Good points on the Revolvers. My other submission to potentially lighten your system. Consider the Petzl ULTRALEGERE. I'm betting it's too light duty or inefficient for this application. Cost a mere $5, weighing in at 10g, and might be useful to someone looking for the absolute lightest configuration. At the very least, a semi-effective backup for the primary system. I suspect it's downfall will be the difficulty keeping the rope tracking through the pulley during operation.

Craig,
The Petzl ULTRALEGERE has a working load of 1 kN which equates to roughly 220 lbs. Petzl doesn't list the efficiency of this pulley so I'm assuming it's below the 70% range of most basic ball bearing systems like the mini traxion. Maybe the Petzl Oscillate would be a good choice for the poor mans 2:1 but even then they are only around 70% efficiency too.

Craig Childre wrote:might be useful to someone looking for the absolute lightest configuration

Probably not a big concern to people using a 2:1 to haul hundreds of pounds of gear. save the 'light is right' mantra for the mountains.

By the same logic that Moof is correctly applying, "1 to 1" hauling is not quite that either. .70 to 1 would be more accurate given the pulley.

Here's my version. I'm still trying to find a reasonable place to actually practice, since there is no crags in the Metro Detroit area. I've got the Petzl Partner Pulleys (91% efficiency) for the Lifting Assembly, and the Micro-Traxion for the Holding Ratchet. I basket hitched my top pulley in the Lifting Assembly with a shorter Dyneema sling, and was actually able to hunt down a Frost Power Draw. (Unneeded, but what the heck.)

What I like is that the 2:1 can be added on to a 1:1 system whenever it's needed. So you can haul 1:1 when you want, and if the haul really sucks and you want the added leverage, or something is a bit stuck, it can be put on there without having to unweight anything or any other messy shenanigans.

Also, my entire system, including Holding Ratchet, not including the ascender, is 1.5 pounds. Definitely not bad.

I'm no engineer so would anyone like to explain why the pulleys got more efficient with more weight?

NorCalNomad wrote:I'm no engineer so would anyone like to explain why the pulleys got more efficient with more weight?

There are a couple of reasons. First, despite what one is taught in school the coefficient of friction for most material combinations isn´t a constant but changes under pressure. For pulleys using impregnated bronze bushes this is particularly so since they release their lubrication under pressure but even for ball bearings this effect is measurable.
More important is that the force required to bend the rope over the sheave is more or less a constant so is a proportionally larger part of the hauling force with smaller loads and so the pulley efficiency appears to get worse. Thinner, more flexible ropes are naturally more efficient as a system than thick stiff ones.

Mark Hudon wrote:By the same logic that Moof is correctly applying, "1 to 1" hauling is not quite that either. .70 to 1 would be more accurate given the pulley.

Yep. If you go digging for old threads, people got all wadded up about using a 2", or 3", or 4" pulley for hauling (only a few percent difference in efficiency), but then in this thread nobody bats an eye suggesting using DMM revolver, or a tiny little accessory pulley in a 2:1.

A couple trips ago my buddy Stu brought a rig with little nylon sheave pulleys. One of those melted on the first haul. Ever since that I've had a more wary eye as to what corners get cut on these rigs.

Get some good pulley's, or ball bearing ones like Pete pointed out at the least. If you are worried about weight, either tag the mess up at the top of the pitch, or climb faster and don't bring so much crap. A 2:1 is for when you have already thrown in the towel and decided to go wall camping style instead of going in either slow suffer mode or fast & light mode.

Here is a pretty similar setup.

When you use a biner to span the top pulley, are you trying to accomplish the same thing as adding a frost draw?

I assume that you just want to have the micro-traxion (or whatever holding device) lower.

The Petzl Partner Pulleys are pretty snazzy. Nice and light and they look to have the same pulley assembly as the Micro-Trax.

I happen to have a croll, which should work just as well as a basic for the ratchet.

Thoughts?

-Luke

I prefer oval lockers on my hauling setup but your setup looks good. I would also tie the water knot as a through knot and not an overhand. The current configuration of the water knot on the purple webbing doesn't look good to me as it makes the knot want to roll. Can't find any literature saying it's incorrect but it doesn't look right to me. Maybe someone else can chime in with more knowledge.

I use a barrel knot on my zed cord to eliminate bulk but your knot works just fine.

Luke, yes, the bigger biner spanning the pulley eliminates the Frost draw and keeps all the force of the pull directly in line. Any side to side movement would be robbing you of efficiency.
Don't forget that 2:1 advantage also magnifies your inefficiencies by 2.

Mark or Pete,

Any reason that a tibloc would be a bad idea instead of the basic?

cheers,
Clayton

I used a Tribloc as the rope grab on my Iron Hawk solo last year and it totally chewed my haul line.
On the first fixed pitch, I heard something sort of groan and things seemed to have slipped. I looked and looked, backed up some stuff and continued on. A few other times I heard this same groan and couldn't figure it. On almost the last pitch I hauled, I was looking at the Tribloc as it slipped and as it groaned it totally fuzzed out a six inch section of the haul line. I realized what the groaning was and why my haul line has all these fuzzed out sections.

I thought I was paying close attention to it and also using a thick enough biner to prevent it from slipping but, apparently not.

Have one around for an emergency but be very careful and make sure it's completely engaged before using it.

Yikes! I figured that it wouldn't work, either because of abrasion or since it's so small it's harder to grab onto. Thanks for the heads up.

Clayton

You guys need to check out a similar post over on McTopo, where you will find tons of great photos, beta and drawings on how to properly construct your 2:1 Chongo hauling ratchet:

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;tn=0&mr=0

Cheers, eh?

Thanks for this post. Will be knocking off sone bigwall rust next week. This hauling setup sure beats using a wall hauler 1:1

Bought this 2" double ended single pulley instead of doing the pulley spanning locker. Stoked on using the "rachet" my whole setup with bag came in at 2.3 lbs

S Denny wrote: Probably not a big concern to people using a 2:1 to haul hundreds of pounds of gear. save the 'light is right' mantra for the mountains.

I would accept your premise, and correct me if I am wrong, but we are talking about gear you carry on lead? Not that I'm on anything so strenuous that a handful or ounces would matter... but for some here looking to shave every ounce for an example a 12d roof pitch?

Craig Childre wrote: I would accept your premise, and correct me if I am wrong, but we are talking about gear you carry on lead? Not that I'm on anything so strenuous that a handful or ounces would matter... but for some here looking to shave every ounce for an example a 12d roof pitch?

We're actually not talking about what you carry on lead. This is a thread about hauling your haulbags posted on the Bigwall forum after all.

In a bigwall situation, the weight you carry on you can be minimal because you'll usually climb with a tag line so if you're going to free that 12D roof pitch on your route, your strip down to the bare essentials and pull up what you need on the tag line (including the hauling ratchet) once the roof has been surmounted or at the end of the pitch. For everything else, you use your 2:1 hauling ratchet to hauling it up in your bags while the second cleans your badass roof pitch on jugs.

Bigwallers don't stress about the weight of the pulley system because of how it weighs you down while on the route, rather, we care about the weight of the system due to the need to approach and descend with it along with everything else in the bags before and after the route.

kevin deweese wrote: In a bigwall situation, the weight you carry on you can be minimal because you'll usually climb with a tag line so if you're going to free that 12D roof pitch on your route, your strip down to the bare essentials and pull up what you need on the tag line (including the hauling ratchet) once the roof has been surmounted or at the end of the pitch. For everything else, you use your 2:1 hauling ratchet to hauling it up in your bags while the second cleans your badass roof pitch on jugs.

Ah, I had been trapped by the system of leading with everything needed for the entire pitch and next anchor. Thanks for the education.

"Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok wrote:OK, so now we're talking about pulleys on the Zed Cord. We have already determined that it doesn't matter a Donkey's Dong* which type of device you use as your Holding Ratchet. But does it matter which pulley you use where on your Zed Cord? Answer: Arrange the following words into a well known phrase or saying: "Yeah" "Hell" OK, so why? Answer - Frig, I don't freaking know! Do you know how many beers I've had today??? OK Ok, I think it has to do with how many spins the pulley makes. The top one spins more, so it has to be better, right? This sounds good *in theory* but does it translate to real wall experience? Accordingly, Dr. Piton set up the following test in his basement. We took the regular 2:1 Chongo Hauling Ratchet, and we checked the position of the "good" pulley vs. the "bad" pulley. Each has its place, both on the wall and in the basement. Sort of like "good" girls and "bad" girls. [Either you get it or you don't] So in the interests of science, we replaced one pulley with a carabiner, and considered the carabiner to be the "bad" pulley. In photo #1 which you see below, the "bad" pulley = carabiner is on top of the Zed Cord: Dang. Sorry. Wrong photo. That was a different scientific experiment. However, do I have your attention??? OK, here's the right photo: Here we have buddy as a counterweight, and I have put the "bad pulley" = carabiner on top, and the "good" pulley [the blue one] on the bottom. As you can see, I and my crab are pulling rather hard, but to no avail. Next, we put the "good" blue pulley on top, and the "bad pulley" = carabiner on the bottom, and here you can see the result: Pretty casual, eh? So put your "good" pulley on top, and your "not good" pulley on the bottom. See? Clearly, it's the Better Way.

Thank you to RandyandPete for all advices.
Could one of you tell me their approx estimate and experience on how much energy loss and hauling goes (180 pound guy 2:1 a 200pound bag) if we set up the 2:1 without having the Z cord using the free end of haul line instead?