Need to interview people who have ice climbing experience

Hey Mike.

I fricken love the idea of magnetic crampon attachment (WAY more pioneering use of magnets than the dumb magnetic carabiner by Black Diamond, in my opinion.) That said, magnets pose some very real problems when it comes to crampon attachment.

1.) Crampons, by the nature of their intended use, take a lot of forward and backward force...think kicking into bullet hard alpine ice, or running down a trail doing a little "skiing" to make quick time on the walk-down descent. This really necessitates a bail type attachment, or something with a thick enough hole in the sole of the boot to keep the crampon from detaching itself.

2.) This leads me to my next issue: boot manufacturers each have fairly different soles, so this would make it pretty difficult to come up with a universal attachment system that would work with a bunch of different boots, which is something that the traditional front and rear bale design excels at, to a degree. I see in the video you have a separate piece under the duck-boot with magnets to grab the crampon's magnets, this is not really an option if you actually want to ice climb with the cramps, unless that attachment point is extremely light and grabs the boot VERY tightly. Couple questions about your prototype: what kind of sole is on the magnetic sheet attached to the boot to grab the crampon? How much does that piece weigh?

This is less of a concern if this is just an academic project, but if you want this to be something that can really be climbed on, some creative solutions are going to be necessary.

3.) This is kind of hard to explain, but I'll try. With a traditional bale attachment system, the fit is just as tight as the front and rear bales are. Put differently, if there is snow on the sole of your boot, you either won't be able to fasten the crampon correctly because there is too much snow in the way to be able to close the rear bale completely, giving you the cue to clear the snow from the sole, or the force of pushing the rear-bale closed will crush the snow underfoot. With magnetic attachment, how will you know when the crampon is fully "on?" The crampon could seem like it's latched to your boot, but is just being pulled via magnets and is simply resting on a pile of snow/ice on the sole of the boot, which could be a catastrophic failure the second you kick a placement into some hard ice.

This was not meant to be critical and nothing else. I REALLY hope you come up with something usable...that would be sick. This is a great idea, and if perfected (is it possible?!) could be a really cool technology. I think your biggest foes right now with this idea are force from kicking and walking and making a universally usable product given the plethora of different boots out there. Keep us updated, I'm intrigued!

Also: consider the neoprene ass-patch hard-shell ice climbing pants...they would be a god-send for me and probably a few others!!

You will have to make magnets big in order for them to stay put, i.e. super heavy. Hell no, I'm walking around with 2 pieces of metal on soles of my boots if I don't have to.

Thank you guys. For the magnet, I'm still trying to test it and see how much force it can hold. But my priority will be easy to step in ( or reduce time) and increase safety, so it might not be a really huge magnet. Also, others told me they have issue to put crampons in their backpack. I'm not sure is it a problem for you guys.

I have one more question. Why there is no manufacture selling their own crampons and boots? Like an exclusive. Is it because people love to switch their gears?

doligo wrote:You will have to make magnets big in order for them to stay put, i.e. super heavy. Hell no, I'm walking around with 2 pieces of metal on soles of my boots if I don't have to.

Not necessarily. Neodymium magnets have an immense strength to weight ratio. I had a bass cab that I gigged with, blew the speakers. Replaced them with Neodymium magnet speakers to cut down on weight. One 7 oz Neodymium magnet was equivalent to a 40 oz magnet of more traditional materials.

These pull at 90 lbs:

magnet4less.com/product_inf…;products_id=1103

If it snapped into some kind of socket, and had more magnetic material on the crampon, then it would be q pretty damn strong connection.

However, I still see the weight being high to get a solid connection.

What about using the magnets to lock in a more mechanical socket system? Think like an SPD system with some sort of magnetic lock or release with a convoluted release that couldn't happen by walking? Using small powerful magnets to actuate a lock would be sweet and would rely on a physical connection instead of just magnets.

EDIT:

Even a 1" diameter disk about as thick as two stacked coins would give 10lbs pull force-- enough to guide things into place.

It still seems that the shearing strength of my crampon kicking would dislodge any kind of magnetic attachment. Pull might be strong, but the perpendicular movement of the kick vs. the magnet pull seems to be in question for staying on the boot.

Mike Lai wrote:I have one more question. Why there is no manufacture selling their own crampons and boots? Like an exclusive. Is it because people love to switch their gears?

Montrail used to make them. They had a whole system - boot, crampon, gaiter. They were not much of a hit...

Mike Lai wrote:I have one more question. Why there is no manufacture selling their own crampons and boots? Like an exclusive. Is it because people love to switch their gears?

Not to be a dick, but common you're a product design student at Art Center (masters or undergrad?). You can't think of a even a few reasons?

1. Boot fit
2. Performance of those/ other crampons
3. Brand loyalties/ Preferring a brand

Just to name a few.

Just like a few others have said using magnets for location rather than securement would work much better.

Gee, you Americans are either super-polite, or kinda dim. Mate, I see a whole bunch of problems with your 'magnetic crampons' idea. First of all, you've based the concept on a single vid of some guy's crampon coming off while climbing. Second - what is most climbing hardware made of? How are you going to prevent these magnets, which are gonna have to be super-strong, from grabbing 'biners on draws as you climb past? Awesome, now you've got a sling wrapped around your crampon. What about press-studs or buckles on gaiters? They catch, you trip... not too much of a problem on flat ground, but if you're on a knife edge ridge... see ya. And, as one person mentioned, the weight. Boots and crampons are heavy enough - what are you going to remove, other than the current lightweight attachment systems, that'll make up for your metal magnet system? You're doing what BD have done with the Magnetron 'biner - a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

I also see a problem with the neoprene pad in the seat-of-pants idea. It'll make you look like you've got a big butt. Otherwise I reckon it's a great idea.

WillP wrote:How are you going to prevent these magnets, which are gonna have to be super-strong, from grabbing 'biners on draws as you climb past?

Think, man... 'what is most climbing gear made of'

Carabiners, cams, etc won't be attracted to magnets.... Unless you make draws out of steel biners.

However, ice screws definitely would... And if you had 90 lbs of neodymium plate magnet forces on your shoe, a loose ice screw could go flying into your foot.

Interesting ideas, but I think the best use would be a magnetic assist to some king of mechanical locking system similar to clipless pedals.

EDIT: Forgot about ice screws being steel (D'OH)

Thanks guys! Actually, my inspiration is from bike's pedal. At first, I was thinking using whole magnet for attaching. Now, I think it is not practical, so it will be just for assisting to locate the position. I consider using titanium as crampons's frame, which is not magnetic and lightweight. My target user will be waterfall ice climber.