Momentum Climbing Accident - Utah

Marc H wrote: It's the responsibility of the climber to check their knot. They're the one that's going to be hurt or killed if it's not tied properly. It's a good idea for the belayer to check the climber's knot, but certainly not a responsibility.

This of course depends on your definition of 'responsibility'. I would think that a 'responsible' belayer would take it upon themselves to check both their own device setup as well as the climber's harness and knot. But this is only according to my definition of 'responsibility'. I would hope that my climbing partners all feel the same way as I do, but the more time I spend on MP, the less confident I am in that assumption.

Checking each other’s knots etc doesn't mean you don't take checking your own seriously or don't take responsibility for yourself. That is just stupid. It is just putting that extra layer of checking in, which is worth it considering you are dealing with your partners life and is so easy to do. Especially in a gym, there are tons of distractions. It also doesn't mean you have to make a big deal of it. If I am climbing with a regular partner, the checking would probably be almost imperceptible to somebody else, with a look in the eyes and a nod to signal on belay. Since the leg loop incident I do take the moment more to not only see the knot is good, but where it is actually attached. If it is not obvious I'll ask "Knot OK?" and they will check and show me. It takes about 2 seconds.

Yeah, David, another “check your knot thread”, because people still forget and deck and some nincompoops don’t understand that watching out for your partner is a good thing.

Jon Zucco "This of course depends on your definition of 'responsibility'."

Yeah. I am not talking legal responsebility, like you should be sued if you don't catch that your leader's knot is bad.

M Sprague wrote:Jon Zucco "This of course depends on your definition of 'responsibility'." Yeah. I am not talking legal responsebility, like you should be sued if you don't catch that your leader's knot is bad.

Absolutely, there is certainly a difference between legal responsibility and personal responsibility (and with 'personal responsibility', I would go as far as to lump checking a partner's setup in there because they are your partner). I just cringe when I read some of the comments that apparently express nonchalant approaches to belaying. But for the most part, this is probably just a matter of arguing semantics. I think we are generally on the same page about this.

Anyway, long story short: accidents happen. When they do, we are all reminded of the inherent danger of our sport, and to take the necessary precautions to protect ourselves and our climbing friends/partners.

The figure eight is a bulky, inefficient, rope hog of a knot. It is also the sign for infinity. Is it knot one of the ironies of the universe that if you don't finish infinity, you risk an imminent meeting with the afore mentioned?

matt davies wrote:The figure eight is a bulky, inefficient, rope hog of a knot. It is also the sign for infinity. Is it knot one of the ironies of the universe that if you don't finish infinity, you risk an imminent meeting with the afore mentioned?

Nice, clever touch of humor to the conversation!

Marc H:

"A good thing for me or you? Hahah"

A good thing for you, of course. Because Dble checking your partner's knot takes so long & is such a hassle, I'd waste all day doing it...you wouldn't have enough time for one pitch!

Mark Lewis wrote: Nice, clever touch of humor to the conversation!

I think it's my responsibility to save the safety sage from the salve of slaves.

Marc you are totally missing the point and I would never climb with someone as dense as you are.

Mistakes happen, its part of being human. Like everyone is saying its not that I don't want to be responsible for myself but humans make mistakes so having a double check system in place when the consequence are death is generally worth it. Especially when it takes two seconds...

Its the same reason doctors double check with everyone in the OR before they start a surgery that they are doing it on the right body part. Its not that doctors aren't responsible its that everyone makes mistakes so you double check stuff. Don't pilots and co pilots have a double checked flight sheet before they take off? They must just be lazy and not want to accept personal responsibility... hahaha

There are several very famous experienced climbers who have decked from not tieing their knots correctly. Do you think they are just noobs or dont care about personal responsibility?? No its probably that they have tied in THOUSANDS of times and you are bound to forget one of those times... and the consequence is usually death.

So why not do a simple double check with your partner that literally takes one second? I agree I become a little more laid back about it in the gym when I am climbing thirty routes a night but I at least always give my partners knot a quick look.

RockyMtnTed wrote:Marc you are totally missing the point and I would never climb with someone as dense as you are. Mistakes happen, its part of being human. Like everyone is saying its not that I don't want to be responsible for myself but humans make mistakes so having a double check system in place when the consequence are death is generally worth it. Especially when it takes two seconds... Its the same reason doctors double check with everyone in the OR before they start a surgery that they are doing it on the right body part. Its not that doctors aren't responsible its that everyone makes mistakes so you double check stuff. Don't pilots and co pilots have a double checked flight sheet before they take off? They must just be lazy and not want to accept personal responsibility... hahaha There are several very famous experienced climbers who have decked from not tieing their knots correctly. Do you think they are just noobs or dont care about personal responsibility?? No its probably that they have tied in THOUSANDS of times and you are bound to forget one of those times... and the consequence is usually death. So why not do a simple double check with your partner that literally takes one second? I agree I become a little more laid back about it in the gym when I am climbing thirty routes a night but I at least always give my partners knot a quick look.

I've vacillated between strict debate-type point deduction and pure ass-hole verisimilitude on this one. Ted- HOLY SHIT! You start with an ad-hominem, then proceed with a non-sequitur, culminated by an admission that negates your previous premises? Poor argument, at best.

RockyMtnTed wrote:There are several very famous experienced climbers who have decked from not tieing their knots correctly. Do you think they are just noobs or dont care about personal responsibility?? No its probably that they have tied in THOUSANDS of times and you are bound to forget one of those times... and the consequence is usually death.

Well, statistically, most of the folks who tie in thousands of times DON'T eventually forget and plunge to the ground. And if the recent events are representative, the consequence is broken legs rather than death.

I don't think it needs to be a big production, but it is pretty easy to keep an eye on your partners tie in or belay practice. Sort of an easy way to mitigate some risk.

Mountainproject has a knack for the absurd... and I have a bad habit of taking the bait.

Before we continue throwing beef about who's not climbing with who, I propose we all wish this poor girl well.

Once we've wished this poor girl well, I propose that we all wish something like this could never happen again. It almost surely will, but let's hope that it takes longer to happen again, and that it happens again but of little consequence to the person's health and well being...

And, finally, let's just do everything we can to keep this tragic mistake from happening again and again and again... I'll take responsibility to check all the knots around me not because I'm afraid of being blamed but because I want to do everything in my power to prevent people from getting hurt, even if they hurl beef on mountainproject.

I love you all, and hope this avoidable accident doesn't happen to any of us.

matt davies wrote: I've vacillated between strict debate-type point deduction and pure ass-hole verisimilitude on this one. Ted- HOLY SHIT! You start with an ad-hominem, then proceed with a non-sequitur, culminated by an admission that negates your previous premises? Poor argument, at best.

hahaha oh god, please tell me you talk like that in real life too!? Are you writing a thesis paper or posting on an internet forum...

Love people who use big words in an effort to sound smart!

Also there was no "admission that negates your previous premise". The post clearly said he becomes more laid back in the gym but still always gives the knot a quick look... All those big words from thesaurus.com and ya still sound like a dumbass!

edit: I looked at your other posts... apparently you always talk like an uppity douche!

Overheard at North Shore surf spot:

"You want some beef?"

"No thanks, I already had lunch."

If I'm climbing with a beginner, I'll carefully check their knot. If with experienced people, I'll ask "You got a good knot?" and glance at it. I don't get all up in their space, lifting up the knot and making sure it's through the leg loop, a quick glance should tell me it's well-tied and at least through the waist loop and nobody is gonna die.

If they happen to not be facing me or even be climbing already, then I trust them to check it themselves based on my verbal prompt, I'm not gonna make them stop and come back down.

There's a happy medium somewhere between being completely uncaring and having what Arthur Miller called a "pathological sense of responsibility."

RocksClimbing wrote: hahaha oh god, please tell me you talk like that in real life too!? Are you writing a thesis paper or posting on an internet forum... Love people who use big words in an effort to sound smart! Also there was no "admission that negates your previous premise". The post clearly said he becomes more laid back in the gym but still always gives the knot a quick look... All those big words from thesaurus.com and ya still sound like a dumbass! edit: I looked at your other posts... apparently you always talk like an uppity douche!

Sweet! I can't help it, I was raised by a Rolls-Royce Speak and Spell. As regards Mr. Ted's argument, it does no favor to its persuasiveness to exemplify observations made under physical duress to bolster a screed about the essence of human fallibility.
I concede that it is not a negation, rather just a weak point. And I will further concede that my presentation of criticism of Mr. Ted's post using debate formality as a cursory template was a poor attempt at satire of an on-line row about climbing that has clearly devolved into the absurd. Not my best work. Thank you for taking my post seriously enough to register and call me a douche under a devilishly clever phony name. Also, thank you for taking the time to peruse my library of overtly pretentious remarks.
Welcome to Mountain Project!
EDIT: Douche toolery is my speciality, and you should really conjure a more varied lexicon of insults to affront me with.
youtube.com/watch?v=ylI86Nh…

Jon Zucco wrote: Absolutely, there is certainly a difference between legal responsibility and personal responsibility (and with 'personal responsibility', I would go as far as to lump checking a partner's setup in there because they are your partner). I just cringe when I read some of the comments that apparently express nonchalant approaches to belaying. But for the most part, this is probably just a matter of arguing semantics. I think we are generally on the same page about this.

I think you are mostly correct regarding the disconnect. I was not talking at any point about "legal" responsibility, but I still disagree that a belayer has a "responsibility" to check their climbers' knots. I think it's a good idea, but I certainly don't think a belayer is responsible to check his climbers' knots at every climb, pitch, etc.

What I take issue with is people like Sprague, Zenetopia, and Mark Lewis saying that when someone forgets to finish his/her knot and subsequently decks, the belayer is just as responsible for the climber's broken bones as the climber themselves. I'm terribly sorry this poor girl got hurt, but if she did in fact neglect to finish her knot, she and she alone is responsible for her injuries. That being said, I do hope she recovers as quickly as possible.

Mark Lewis wrote:That is the section of his post I'm referring to as spot on Marc, not the belayer leaving his partner in the aforementioned situation.

Well, when you quote his entire post--and say, "Thanks for the account"--it makes sense I'm going to think you're responding to his entire post, including his account. Especially considering you actually thanked him for the account. I find it amazing that you question my comments about complacency but just accept Bruce's mildly insane account without question. I'm truly astounded. And also slightly appalled.

zentopia wrote:A good thing for you, of course. Because Dble checking your partner's knot takes so long & is such a hassle, I'd waste all day doing it...you wouldn't have enough time for one pitch!

I never said a thing about how long it takes to check knots. Not a single thing. I talked about how assuming your belayer is responsible for checking your knot can lead to complacency. Are we in the same conversation? Do you understand what complacency means? Once again you assumed you understand my motivations for doing things and once again you are wrong. If you try reading what I wrote and take a second to try to understand it, this might be a little easier for both of us.

I believe you meant to direct your comment at this gentleman..

D-storm wrote:"Thou shalt check thy knot three times, then untie the knot and tie it again to ensure it has been properly tied," dictates the holy office of the Redundant Department of Redundancy. "Once the knot is retied, check it thrice more ... Repeat until there's no time left to climb and you may thank these safe habits for keeping you safe."

Which I think is quite clever, actually.

RockheadedTed wrote:Marc you are totally missing the point and I would never climb with someone as dense as you are.

Awww shucks! And I just opened up my computer to send you a PM about climbing this weekend. Damn. I'm not sure if the rest of your post had any good points because I still haven't stopped laughing about your opening line. Maybe I'll get there one day. But probably not. :-)

I love how all the people that aren't capable of seeing the big picture tell me they'll never climb with me like it's my loss. That's super cute.

It's not me that's missing the point here, Teddy boy.

Climb safe everyone.

Some gyms teach top-ropers something called a "sit test." After they are both tied in and ready to go they take slack and "sit" to double-check the climber and the belayer. Although this is taught and encouraged I don't think it is enforced.

matt davies wrote: It does no favor to its persuasiveness to exemplify observations made under physical duress to bolster a screed about the essence of human fallibility. I concede that it is not a negation. I will further concede that my presentation of criticism of Mr. Ted's post using debate formality as a cursory template was a poor attempt at satire of an on-line row about climbing that has clearly devolved into the absurd...under a devilishly clever phony name... thank you for taking the time to peruse my library of overtly pretentious remarks. you should really conjure a more varied lexicon of insults to affront me with.

Hooooo. Lee. Shit.

Why do you talk like that? Haha that is beyond rediculous... Do you even hear yourself? This is an informal online discussion board... Who are you trying to impress?

RocksClimbing wrote: beyond rediculous...

...yet mildly rifreshing.

Every single time I climb, regardless of who I am with, or how many lines we have done.

"your through both, check"
"knot looks correct, check"
"I am through my belay device correctly, check"
"Biner is locked, check"
etc, etc.