Calling All Climbers of Color

This is getting good now.

Ryan Williams wrote: Yes, you will definitely notice racial diversity in every part of UK life.

I don't pay that much attention but the royal family still looks quite white.

James Mills wrote: Ian the problem is I don't see ANY black climbers on television, in magazines or videos.

Are black climbers under-represented? If not, then it's not what I would consider a "problem", as least not of the media. It's one thing to create/reinforce the stereotypes, which the advertisement/entertainment industries have been quite guilty of, it's another to actively promote diversity, which aren't the duties of private companies.

James Mills wrote:Ian the problem is I don't see ANY black climbers on television, in magazines or videos. I'm not saying that anyone is to blame. It's just a shame. One of the many aspects of white privilege is to pretend that skin color doesn't matter. That's not a luxury I can enjoy. Comments regarding concentration of melanin and your body's ability to reflect light differently is insulting and suggests that the horrific period of oppression and discrimination in this country that spanned almost 400 years never happened. To play innocent now and claim to be "color blind" means that we've forgotten the past and refuse to take responsibility for where we are today.

All of the comments I've made have been within the context of climbing. If we were talking about the ease for a black person to get an education, income, or even the general respect to match that of a white person, it would be a whole different ballgame. I'm not ignorant to the horrible past that black people have had to endure. But we're not talking about those things, we're talking about climbing.

Can you honestly say that a black person would have ANY more difficulty than a white person in taking up climbing if they wanted to do so? As far as I'm concerned, all you need to do is walk into a gym with a few bucks and have at it. If you like it, buy some gear and go outside. If they can't afford it, no amount of black climbers in the media or anywhere will magically make them afford it (and we go back to the income issue, which does exist). What race-related roadblocks did you encounter when you decided to give climbing a try?

I (and others) have already pointed out that exposure to climbing for people of ANY color is highly dependent on your location and culture. I grew up surrounded by a nearly 100% white population that knew nothing about climbing, and it wasn't until I was 20 and moved to California that I heard about it and gave it a try. I still get the "you're crazy" responses from every single person in my family. I've seen far more black climbers in Colorado than I saw climbers of ANY color where I grew up. Climbing is not magically built into the genes of white people, but it just so happens that some white people have been raised where climbing is an option and most black people have not. Hockey and skiing (and probably most mountain sports) are in the same boat. Your article makes valid points about the terrible past that may have pushed black people to live where they do, but that doesn't mean that black people are being forced to stay where they are today (unless we go back to income/education, but again...that has nothing to do with climbing). Climbing was a huge factor into why I left my hometown.

I'm sorry if you took offense to what I said, but I stand behind it: skin color is irrelevant in the world of climbing. If you see a black person climbing in the media and it makes you happy then that's awesome. Me, I'd just see a climber.

Just a brief anecdote--

I've climbed a few times with a kid, super strong (solid 5.13 sport), established in the gym/team scene, who also happens to be black. I was talking to his mom (really cool woman, who chauffeurs him on long weekend roadtrips, belays him, totally supports his passion). She mentioned that a while back, their local newspaper did a brief write-up on him, since after all he is a very good comp climber. Quite a few angry folks from their black community wrote letters to the paper, complaining about them publicizing one of their own who was doing a "white person's sport."

I'm not exactly sure if there is much to glean from this story, and I hope that no nitwits will jump on it to say, "See? Blacks don't want to climb! It's not in their culture!" It's more complex than that. And as far as large-scale social problems go, Ian is right, this is not on par with economic or legal discrimination. But at the same time, it would be cool to see more people from historically peripheralized races and classes get into the sport that we love. Obe Carrion's story is awesome. Any one of us would be psyched to see hoards of non-white kids having bouldering sessions in Central Park.

In the end, what James is doing is pretty cool; he's identified a simple and real fact: not a lot of blacks climb. He's theorized rightly that if more blacks were exposed to climbing and outdoor rec in general, cultural bridges would be built and our whole society would be just a tiny bit better. And, finally, he's found a very minor yet significant way that he can help make this happen, by way of putting real black climbers into an ad, even if it is a cheesy beer ad.

Funny actually, I don't know a single black climber nor have I ever seen one at the crag. One of my best friends is of Nigerian descendance and he's been along to the gym once or twice (I forced him) and afterwards ranted about how all whites are crazy and foolish.
Something along the lines of "A black man sees a mountain or the sea and instinctively knows that sh*ts dangerous, you stay the hell out, but, ... You cooky whites feel this unnatural urge to get yourselves into messy situations." I don't remember the exact words he used but it was pretty hilarious. Bottom line: you might have a difficult time finding not only black climbers, but black ICE climbers? Sh*t be cold yo!

camhead wrote:Just a brief anecdote-- I've climbed a few times with a kid, super strong (solid 5.13 sport), established in the gym/team scene, who also happens to be black. I was talking to his mom (really cool woman, who chauffeurs him on long weekend roadtrips, belays him, totally supports his passion). She mentioned that a while back, their local newspaper did a brief write-up on him, since after all he is a very good comp climber. Quite a few angry folks from their black community wrote letters to the paper, complaining about them publicizing one of their own who was doing a "white person's sport." I'm not exactly sure if there is much to glean from this story, and I hope that no nitwits will jump on it to say, "See? Blacks don't want to climb! It's not in their culture!" It's more complex than that. And as far as large-scale social problems go, Ian is right, this is not on par with economic or legal discrimination. But at the same time, it would be cool to see more people from historically peripheralized races and classes get into the sport that we love. Obe Carrion's story is awesome. Any one of us would be psyched to see hoards of non-white kids having bouldering sessions in Central Park. In the end, what James is doing is pretty cool; he's identified a simple and real fact: not a lot of blacks climb. He's theorized rightly that if more blacks were exposed to climbing and outdoor rec in general, cultural bridges would be built and our whole society would be just a tiny bit better. And, finally, he's found a very minor yet significant way that he can help make this happen, by way of putting real black climbers into an ad, even if it is a cheesy beer ad.

Isn't that kid from Raleigh? I think he climbs at TRC.

reboot, you're right about the Royal Family being all white. But most people don't really consider them to be part of "life in the UK."

Ryan Williams wrote: Isn't that kid from Raleigh? I think he climbs at TRC.

Yup.

Ryan Williams wrote: reboot, you're right about the Royal Family being all white. But most people don't really consider them to be part of "life in the UK."

I don't think anybody consider them to have a typical "life in the UK", neither are prime ministers or presidents. But they are the "face" of a nation, more often than not. I'd contend a nation lacking diversity in the leaders or the privileged class is not truly diverse.

camhead wrote:In the end, what James is doing is pretty cool; he's identified a simple and real fact: not a lot of blacks climb. He's theorized rightly that if more blacks were exposed to climbing and outdoor rec in general, cultural bridges would be built and our whole society would be just a tiny bit better. And, finally, he's found a very minor yet significant way that he can help make this happen, by way of putting real black climbers into an ad, even if it is a cheesy beer ad.

+1

I really enjoyed your article, James, as well as your comments on white privilege, which, to be clear, isn't the same thing as institutional racism. I think you've hit on an important point in your article that the outdoors in general represents something different to African Americans. Living in the South, I think there's a great deal of cultural memory of the outdoors as being a place of marginalization and hardship--of working for others' profit, of trying to eek out a living as a tenant farmer or sharecropper, of lynchings and brutal murders. As result, the outdoors may not feel like a place of escape or repose as it does for many white men and women. That's where white privilege comes into play. The narrative that white Americans, in particular, have grown up with is one in which men (not so much women--that's another issue entirely) have tested themselves against the natural world--proving their strength and dominance. In other words, there's a link between the outdoors and its "conquest" and white masculinity--a link that could make others feel uncomfortable. With that in mind, it's easier to understand why previously "dominated" groups like African Americans, other minorities, and women don't participate in sports like climbing to the same degree as white men.

Again, this isn't to say that the climbing community is somehow at fault or isn't welcoming of diverse participants, but there needs to be a change in the cultural narratives of what nature means to us, how we relate to it, and why we should protect it. The fact that James is working toward that goal is really awesome.

reboot wrote: I don't think anybody consider them to have a typical "life in the UK", neither are prime ministers or presidents. But they are the "face" of a nation, more often than not. I'd contend a nation lacking diversity in the leaders or the privileged class is not truly diverse.

So at what point did the United States become diverse then? Colin Powell? Codoleezza Rice? Barack Obama?

I think you're confusing diversity and equal opportunity. No one is claiming that minorities in either country have the same opportunities as whites. It is getting better in both the US and the UK, but both places are a long way off from being able to say that everyone truly has equal opportunity. The UK is probably worse than the US. And as so many have mentioned before, it's not only about race, but also social, economic and cultural barriers.

But to say that the UK population is not diverse because the Royal Family is not diverse doesn't make sense. Have you ever been to a city in the UK?

I live in one of the most affluent boroughs in the entire country. We pay a lot more for a much smaller flat because we like it here. One of the main reasons that I do like it is because it is a very nice neighborhood (not unlike the neighborhood I grew up in) but it is also racially and culturally diverse (UNLIKE the neighborhood I grew up in). I live within a five minute walk of a white British family, a Black British family, a Somali family, a Jamaican family, a Pakistani family, and Johnny Rotten. I also have neighbors from Spain, Italy, and Turkey, and the couple that lives downstairs is gay. Add me and my half Filipino wife and we have quite a diverse little community.

The company I work for has about 30 employees in the UK. That includes people from the US, UK, Trinidad, Jamaica, Nigeria, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Australia, South Africa, Czech Republic, Germany, Pakistan and India.

If that is not diversity I don't know what is. The Queen herself has welcomed the influx of people to the UK in the past decades. Just because there is still some limitations to social mobility does not mean that a country is not diverse. It only means that certain parts of it are not diverse, and this is still the case in most countries in the world.

All camhead was commenting on was that you see a more diverse group of people in the UK media than you do in the US - and it's completely accurate. When a black person gets the lead role of a doctor or lawyer in a major AMerican television show or movie, it is kind of a big deal. Here, it is just normal. That doesn't mean that there actually IS more social mobility here, but at least they are making an effort here to show that social mobility is present and very possible. In the US it seems the other way around.

One of the points that James is trying to make is that there are still a lot of choices that are made by the American media that cause harm to the African American community. When a young black person in the US sits down to watch TV, he will immediately notice that the people on TV that look like him are more often criminals than lawyers, more often patients than doctors, more often players than coaches, more often employees than employers, and more often poor than rich. I haven't had a TV in five years but at least I can say it was still like that when I left the US in 2007. So when a black person picks up a climbing magazine and sees only white people, what are they to think? That this is the perfect activity for them to go out and try? Probably not. Probably more like "man, I bet I'd look funny up there in the mountains with all those white people."

Sure, the climbing mags are only representing the actual climbing community and you can't fault them for that. But if one of them made more of an effort to show that climbing can be for everyone, I don't think you'd fault them for that either. It can be done.

James Mills wrote:I want to thank everyone for their kind and thoughtful consideration of this post. It's remarkable how different the responses and discussion are here compared to the identical post that went up on rockclimbing.com. The anger and hostility I experienced there was disappointing and a bit heart breaking. So I sincerely appreciate the rational discussion we are having here. To speak to the point of culture I agree that there are issues that go far beyond race when exploring the adventure gap. But specifically in own case the color of one's skin has everything to do with why African-Americans may or may not spend time outdoors and it's not for the reasons you might think. From the time I was a young man in certain circles I was ostracized by my own peers for not being "black enough". After a successful high school football career I opted for rowing in college to expand my athletic experience. I was part of the aquatics community at Berkeley splitting my time between the Cal Crew boathouse and the pools on campus where I was a lifeguard and swim instructor. From there through graduation I worked at the campus sports facility teaching CPR and First Aid and ultimately became a backpacking trip leader and rock climbing instructor. I was on the staff of one of the first commercial indoor climbing gyms in the country. After working at REI managing the rental department I took a job working customer service at the North Face until I was promoted to a position as a sales rep managing a six state territory in the Midwest. Despite steady progress through a career that now spans 20 years I still have to explain to my friends and family back home why I do what do, those crazy things that white people do. During Christmas years ago I once did a slide show of a two week kayak adventure in Bolivia. Pictures of me paddling on alpine lake at 10,000 feet were met not with gasps of awe but incredulous head shakes. "You've heard of the Bahama's, right?" said one cousin. This speaks to the point in my article regarding those things we're "supposed" to do as black people in America. When you grow up being told that black people don't camp, don't ski, don't swim there's an amazing amount of social pressure to overcome. That's especially true when the broad media spectrum on television, in magazines and in films reenforces that idea by failing show images of people who look like you doing the same things you enjoy or might like to try one day. As Sophia Danenburg points out in the article her story and mine shouldn't necessarily matter to climbers or outdoor professionals to whom our accomplishments are unexceptional. Our stories though will hopefully impact those people of color who conform to social pressure and self-select themselves out of activities they have every right to participate in but simply don't because they tell themselves it's not something they're supposed to do. I believe that the only real solution to this issue is to continue to create positive role models that demonstrate the options that are available to anyone willing to put in the effort and try. I hope that this upcoming beer commercial featuring African-American climbers will help with that and later this year a group working with the National Outdoor Leadership School aims to put the first majority black team on the summit of Denali ( expeditiondenali.nols.edu/) I hope that though this and other initiatives we can achieve a cultural change that will ultimately make a person's race or ethnicity completely irrelevant in the near future. Again, thanks to everyone for participating in this discussion

I really enjoyed the writeups (Thanks! And I like to think we are more thoughtful here on MP.com)and being a white male from the NYC suburbs my thought is in speaking with black friends and having 1 friend who I used to climb with... is that the cultural issue/perceptions are ingrained in the sub-culture of black folks. I don't want to come across as harsh or critical and I'm not sure how those perceptions came to be, but from my experience it has a lot to do with the comments, like your cousin made, about the Bahamas. How you change that may be through manipulative media outlets and educational opportunities. I'm trying to think to myself if there's some outside influence that created that within the sub-culture or whether that was something created from within.

I need to make myself very clear. I don't believe that today there is anything preventing blacks or other minorities from participating fully and actively in the climbing community. I am merely suggesting that I and other people to whom this issue matters can do more to encourage people of color to spend time out of doors and engaging in adventure sports like mountaineering. This morning I posted a story to my web site that I wrote in December for National Geographic Adventure. joytripproject.org/2013/fro… Asa Firestone is a young businessman from Boulder who is working to put the first commercial climbing wall near the slum areas of Rio de Janeiro. His goal is to provide young people with an alternative to life in gangs peddling drugs in their neighborhoods. He believes as do I that by providing exposure, opportunity and positive role models he can help make a difference in their lives. Though he is white Asa is working with local adults to help them become competent climbers so that they can mentor the youth around them. Projects like this in the U.S. could have a big impact on shrinking the adventure gap. I can only hope that fellow climbers might share my enthusiasm for this kind initiative and lend their support where they can either financially or as volunteers. At the very least I believe that it's important to realize that everyone needs a little support and encouragement to get on route to start climbing.

Ryan - well said. I was in London for the holidays and visited the Biscuit and West Way gyms - In my brief time there I noticed a significant diversity in the climbing community.

If anyone has a bit of time on their hands (who am I kidding, this is the internet, we ALL are wasting time here), check out this pretty funny cracked.com article on how Hollywood is still really behind on a lot of subtle race issues. These are the kinds of things that we are working with in the cultural-media exchange:

cracked.com/article_19549_5…

Ryan Williams wrote: I think you're confusing diversity and equal opportunity...

Dude, sensitive much? All I'm pointing out is the monarchy is the anti-thesis of diversity. While it may be a small part of the population, it still wields quite some power. As long as it exists, UK still lags behind some nations in that aspect. Also, for all your claim of racial diversity, the entire UK is still almost as white as Boulder. But that's not all important: racial diversity matters little without cultural diversity (which there hardly is any in Boulder).

James Mills wrote:[Asa] believes as do I that by providing exposure, opportunity and positive role models he can help make a difference in their lives. Though he is white Asa is working with local adults to help them become competent climbers so that they can mentor the youth around them. Projects like this in the U.S. could have a big impact on shrinking the adventure gap. I can only hope that fellow climbers might share my enthusiasm for this kind initiative and lend their support where they can either financially or as volunteers. At the very least I believe that it's important to realize that everyone needs a little support and encouragement to get on route to start climbing.

James, I agree with this completely. I feel that climbing and any sport and/or outdoor activity greatly improves ones quality of life, and exposing those to new experiences that they might not otherwise have is awesome (especially those that are surrounded by crime). I also agree with your ideas that we need to ensure that our outdoor space is preserved, especially in a future where immigration and increasing urban populations may not care as much about these things. My only disagreement with you was linking this all to one specific race, and I admit that discussion may have gone a little further than it should have.

Even if some turd like me is giving you a pain in the ass on the internet, you're still doing more for climbing than I ever have. I'm glad that you're willing to put your words out there for everybody to read (and unfortunately criticize), since you do make some very worthwhile observations. I hope that even people who disagree with some of your points can look past those to see the bigger picture; I have, and I'm sorry I didn't mention that earlier when I was busy debating with you.

I'll keep my eye open for black climbers, but since Fort Collins is only 1.2% black to begin with, I'm not sure how much luck I'll have. On the other hand, my wife is Asian if they want to tick off both the female and minority boxes!

reboot wrote: All I'm pointing out is the monarchy is the anti-thesis of diversity. While it may be a small part of the population, it still wields quite some power.

I'm REALLY trying hard not to fall into academic discourse here, but that is a blanket statement that does not stand up to any sort of critical scrutiny beyond the superficial "ruling families are white" statement.

In terms of colonial racial policy in colonies and in imperial centers, emancipation, and subsequent civil rights issues, you could make the case that monarchical empires such as Britain, Spain, and to a lesser degree France had better racial policies than anti-monarchical nations or empires such as the US, Netherlands, or Brazil.

Spain had a legacy of top-down monarchically imposed laws securing legal rights for slaves and non-whites stretching from the 1000s into the early 1800s. England, with its limited electorate and monarchy, was at the forefront of abolition. American democracy, on the other hand, was one of the last world powers to give up slavery, and its Civil Rights record since then has been equally abysmal. And don't bring up South Africa as a monarchical counter-argument, a lot of scholars have theorized that its brutal racial legacy owes more to the Dutch (a republic), than England.

reboot wrote: Dude, sensitive much? All I'm pointing out is the monarchy is the anti-thesis of diversity. While it may be a small part of the population, it still wields quite some power. As long as it exists, UK still lags behind some nations in that aspect. Also, for all your claim of racial diversity, the entire UK is still almost as white as Boulder. But that's not all important: racial diversity matters little without cultural diversity (which there hardly is any in Boulder).

I'm not being overly sensitive, I just don't agree with you. For what it's worth, I held a similar opinion until I actually moved here. It looks a lot different on the outside, I'll give you that. If you want to have a discussion about what the Royal Family means to Britain, we can do that in another thread. It's a bit different than you might think. They certainly aren't keeping the country from embracing all types diversity.

But yes, the UK is still very white. I acknowledged this in a previous post - London looks a lot different than the rest of the UK in terms of colour. It is the only place in the UK where you are a minority if you are white. But if you count the whole metro area, the city is home to nearly a quarter of the population of the UK and it is certainly the center of the economy. In that way the UK is very similar to the US. Most of the diversity occurs in the big cities.

No reason to continue talking about the UK. I just thought it was worth mentioning that the demographics at climbing gyms here are a little different than they are in most other parts of the world. I think it has at least a little to do with the fact that the gyms actively promote themselves to a very wide range of cultures in an attempt to break down some barriers.

camhead wrote: I'm REALLY trying hard not to fall into academic discourse here, but that is a blanket statement that does not stand up to any sort of critical scrutiny beyond the superficial "ruling families are white" statement.

I'm not saying that a monarchy is better or worse at promoting diversity or expanding minority rights over a democracy. But the fact remains it lacks diversity in the decision makers. You picked the successful examples, but how about the less successful ones in the middle east, Africa, the communist countries, etc? Are those also shining examples of diversity? That's the problem I see inherent in a monarchy/oligarchy government: the fate of a nation hinges on the brilliance/brutality of the homogeneous few. True diversity is only achieved when diversity is in every part of the social/economic structure.

I see some reference to indoor climbing gyms being diverse in many areas....I agree that there have been many people of color active in these gyms. But they seem to treat the activity as they would any workout in a general health club. They still are not transferring the climbing learned to the outdoors. Where are the big numbers of black gym climbers out on the cliffs? They are not, with many reasons why mentioned in many lengthy paragraphs above. If it just isn't in your nature, your blood to be an outdoor adventure kind of person, you may never choosse to do so.