How steep do you ARC?

Hey all: I didn't want to hijack the other ARC thread, so here's yet another ARC post. I recently tried ARC training on a 20 degree dreadwall and was shocked at how stupidly hard this is, even on incut holds. In fact, it seemed as long as the holds were incut/OK, it didn't seem to matter if they were 1 pad or jugs, I climbed for less than ~12 minutes before failure. This got me wondering about the correlation between the angle wall you can ARC train on and the grade you send on steep enduro sport climbs (e.g. RRG Motherlode style).

So, out of interest, what angle can/do you climb on for ARC durations, presuming decent holds, and how does it translate to enduro sport grades?

I normally ARC between 15-25 deg for 30-40 minutes. I also mix it up a bit, by reaching over and hitting the stop button about every 60-80 ft, and shaking out for about a minute, without coming off the wall. Obviously at 15 deg, I can do much smaller holds than at 25, and I have done 40 min at 30 deg but I feel it becomes too juggy. I generally do between 450 and 600 ft during an ARC session. As for my outside climbing, I sent Tuna Town 12d on a trip to the Red last month.

This is my first training cycle with an ARC phase so I don't have peak phase results yet. I started out ARCing on the Treadwall at 5 degrees overhung with huge jugs. Now, after 6 weeks, I ARC at 30 degrees overhung on mini-jugs. On the bouldering wall I traverse around the caves which range from 30 degrees overhung to horizontal. I have set up toe-hooks, heel-hooks, heel-toe cams and nasty knee-bars to get short rests.
While I haven't taken any rest yet, the training seems to have translated well to outdoor climbs. The climbs at The Compound aren't mega-enduro (35-65 moves) but they are ridiculously steep. I can do 13b in 4-5 tries and can get multiple good burns in a day, which is new.
I'll update if I get a chance to climb at the Pipe Dream where the routes are generally longer and less bouldery.

Brendan, I assume you are training on a Treadwall with the braking function that activates as your foot hold panel becomes the bottom one?

Have you noticed any notable "slipping" of the hydralic brake? That is, does it hold you in place long enought to get a good shake when needed?

I recently bought a Treadwall Kore and it only holds the brake for about 8 seconds before rotating under. The issue is the hydraulics slip slowly. I am talking to Brewers Ledge about it, but they do say some slippage is normal...just interested in your experience.

I really want to do 30+ minute sessions, but with sub 8 second "shakes" its too hard.

Yes ours slips over about 8 seconds. I try to climb at least 10 minutes on 'continuous' and then switch to braking to recover then switch back to continuous. I never rest more than 8 seconds and mostly try to get a quick shake as I move to the next hold. Think Adam Ondra style, just fatter and weaker.

Mike Bond wrote:I really want to do 30+ minute sessions, but with sub 8 second "shakes" its too hard.

After talking with Douglas Hunter it sounds like after 20 minutes the ARCing gains are the same so I only do 20-25 minute bouts.

Brendan N. (grayhghost) wrote:Yes ours slips over about 8 seconds. I try to climb at least 10 minutes on 'continuous' and then switch to braking to recover then switch back to continuous. I never rest more than 8 seconds and mostly try to get a quick shake as I move to the next hold. Think Adam Ondra style, just fatter and weaker.

Thanks for the info! I try to do the "ambulatory" shake between holds too, but really thought the wall would stay fully locked. I climbed on an old M6 that locked solid.

I guess I may have to adjust my plans slightly.

Ondra...fatter than him doesn't mean much...weaker doesn't either....I just hope you don't scream as loud! :-)

The brake is activated by a microswitch that is adjustable. However, that switch activates a solenoid that closes the valve in the same hydraulic controller that you adjust the speed with. If you cut your speed dial all the way to the slowest setting, it is the same as having the switch engaged. Try yours...if it doesn't slip with the switch engaged, it won't slip when at the slowest setting (valve closed).

Mine slips with the valve closed and/or with the switch engaged. I now have feedback on 5 Kores....3 slip and 2 do not. I think it is a valve component problem. Brewers has been having me try different things but with no success yet.

Thanks for responding it is good to hear that there is another Kore out there that stops properly.

As far as workout stats, I've only had my wall a couple weeks. My goal is 45 minutes 3-4 days a week at progressively steeper angles on good incuts....staying aerobic and avoiding a real pump.

My problem is...I can't stop and shake really at all. So, I typically begin to get pumped by 10 minutes. So, I have been doing 3-4 sets of 10-15 minutes. I'm only at 5 degrees now.

Endurance is a real weakness of mine. I seldom make it to the red...but when I do I suck! I am going to the red for 2 days in November and hope this arcing helps.

A sincere thanks for the responses. From the ~2 data points kindly supplied it is pretty obvious:

a)that the angle you do your ARC workouts has a linear correlation to the grade you can send at the Red, up to at least 30 degrees.

b) I am pathetically unfit.

The data of this comprehensive survey of MP users suggests that to climb enduro 12d-13b you should be able to ARC at 20-30 degrees for 20+ minutes

On a different note, isn't it funny how every other ARC thread has a hundred or so replies, but a practical question like what angle do you do you ARC workouts at vs what grade can climb scarcely got 2. It makes me wonder if people actually do these workouts.

I can ARC on a steep wall. I have a 11deg and a 28deg at home (plus the roof). My circuit does 750 moves across both walls in ~30 minutes. I've tried ARCing for 45 but it's really boring unless I'm only doing one set and then it trashes my skin unless it's really cold and I can keep it dry. I def don't climb enduro 13a...

I ARC on a 45 pretty regularly. I do two 20 minute sessions with a ten minute break. I use mini-jugs with harder climbing interspersed. I've definitely noticed gains - originally I had to take constant rests by stemming to another wall or traversing to a 12 degree wall to shake out. Now I stay on the 45 almost exclusively and use giant heel hooks to rest.

I also ARC on a 35 foot wall at my work regularly. The angle varies, but overall I'd say it's 15 degrees overhanging. I can stay on it using small incut edges (not jugs) and only shaking out as the auto-belay lowers me (6 seconds or so).

Tipton wrote:I ARC on a 45 pretty regularly. .... I also ARC on a 35 foot wall at my work regularly. The angle varies, but overall I'd say it's 15 degrees overhanging. I can stay on it using small incut edges (not jugs) and only shaking out as the auto-belay lowers me (6 seconds or so).

So you are ARCing and including lowering?

LeeAB wrote: So you are ARCing and including lowering?

Sorry for not being more specific, the 45 is a bouldering wall, so not on that. For the 35 ft wall I do include the lowering down. I used to down climb on jugs but this was annoying because of the auto-belay pulling on me. It also took longer and made it harder to maintain the appropriate level of intensity.

The time it takes the auto-belay to lower is negligible. It represents at most 1/6th of the time I take to get up the wall. I try to do ARC workouts moving at a slower pace and really focusing on technique - which is not my strong suite.

I think the important thing is to make sure you are maintaining the correct intensity for an extended period of time and the best way for me is to do ride the belay down so I can resume the climb ASAP.

http://vimeo.com/62182844

Brendan N. (grayhghost) wrote:http://vimeo.com/62182844

Great video.
This one actually gets me inspired.
Out of curiousity, has anyone looked at where your heart rate is during ARC sessions?

Mark E Dixon wrote: Great video. This one actually gets me inspired. Out of curiousity, has anyone looked at where your heart rate is during ARC sessions?

Crazy arc! I'm struggling to arc on the treadwall at the very slightest of angles! It flash pumped me using mostly jugs too, grrr!

Mark E Dixon wrote: Great video. This one actually gets me inspired. Out of curiousity, has anyone looked at where your heart rate is during ARC sessions?

Yes _ I use the Suunto Ambit 3 Peak with HR to monitor most of my workouts. The only time I don't is ski touring- which is probably the one I a most curious about. But I don't want Bluetooth interfering with my avy beacon.

I would ARC at an angle that gets you two 20 minutes reps before failure, with a ten minute rest in between. You should feel like you could do a third rep but your form would be sloppy and desperate.

Sometimes a lack of endurance looks like a lack of power because your power is being bled off slightly on every previous move outside your anaerobic threshold. If you are failing at power moves in the first 20 moves, I agree that you should work on power.

Mike McKinnon wrote:Is that the intensity I am going for?

this discussion highlights the stochastic/random nature of how ARC is being practiced today, not only in differences between climbers, but the unavoidable inconsistencies in climbing intensity during ARC.

It does depend on each person's objectives, but if the goal is to maintain a maximal steady state for an extended period of time then the first step is to determine maximal steady of what? Some see ARC as a Recovery activity (Horst), others (Andersons) see it as a maximum aerobic steady state activity (Threshold training), whereas some simply see it as training session to practice technique at a "low" stress level.

In case the objective is to train at the Threshold level (recommended by Andersons) I recommend thinking of this in the context of the critical power model for the muscle groups involved (those controlling the fingers). From a climbing perspective the differentiating factor in endurance/performance amongst beginners, advanced and elite climbers is the oxidative capacity of the forearm flexor muscles.

Once this limiting aspect of oxidative capacity is combined with critical power model one can develop training protocols that isolate the muscles of interest and optimize training results. In particular interval resistance training at or below threshold of the forearms should achieve these objectives (ability to use muscular oxygen efficiently and increase the amount of muscular oxygen present in the forearm flexor muscles).

I used a near infrared spectroscopy (NIRS) sensor on my forearm to monitor muscular oxygen consumption levels and was able to determine my threshold at different hand grips (Full Crimp, Open Hand, Pinch). The benefits of using NIRS is that the recovery and endurance zones can also be identified in addition to the threshold.

Once the training zones are identified then specific interval training can be conducted at the appropriate resistances and time protocols to improve whatever aspect needs to be improved (efficiency, threshold, etc.)

Mike McKinnon wrote: Thanks Brandon. So I should be close to failing at the end of my 20 minute set? Is that the intensity I am going for?

Not according to Eva Lopez, she has a series of very interesting articles. Excerpt:

"One could think that a higher demand on the muscles would increase even more their need for energy and hence blood flow. By the contrary, in isometric contractions maximal blood flow is registered at very low intensities: around 10-25% of MVC. Past this, at 25-40%, the flow does not actually go up, and it even decreases if we go further (Barnes, 1980; Byström and Kilbom, 1990)"

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climbing friend,

it is a waste of time. cut your feet and utilize the angry campusing, max power increasing 5x monthly.