How long should I expect to suck at climbing cracks?

I'm a sport-climber. Started getting into alpine about 2 years ago. Have climbed a bunch of routes in RMNP, Tetons, and other 14ers around CO. To give you some idea, I've swapped leads on Syke's Sickle, Culp-Bossier, and plan to the Casual Route this summer.

Realizing that it's somewhat ridiculous to be in the mountains and have virtually no crack climbing ability, I decided to try and learn by planning a bunch of Vedauwoo and Indian Creek trips. I have a few questions.

Foot jams hurt my feet unbelievably bad. No, I'm not wearing super-aggro Muiras that are two sizes too small. I think this is only true for certain sizes of cracks since my feet obviously fit better in some compared to others, but hand cracks literally cause excruciating pain. I can hand jam pretty well, but I can move about 10 feet before the pain in my feet, specifically my toes, gets to be too much. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but I think my pain tolerance is high enough that I can comfortably say, if crack climbing hurt everyone this bad, nobody would do it. Maybe this is purely a technique issue as I'm still learning, but should I just expect crack climbing to hurt pretty badly all the time? I always thought hands hurt more than feet when crack climbing, but it's not the case with me.

Another question I'll pose is that I don't like crack climbing. For me, it removes one of the most fun and challenging parts of climbing, figuring out sequences. I'm sure there is some sequencing that goes on when crack climbing, either in terms of placing gear, handling a steep section or a pod, etc., but I don't think it's a stretch to say, it's basically the same move over and over. It seems to me that one of the challenges of crack climbing, is being able to endure the pain of crack climbing for the length of the crack.

Now that I'm done railing against crack climbing, the main reason I'm doing it is to prepare for alpine. I have no ambition to climb hard splitters at the Creek, I just want to be good enough that I'm comfortable on an alpine crack. Are Creek splitters good training for alpine climbing? I know granite (which is generally the rock in the alpine) forms differently than Wingate sandstone. Generally, granite has bottlenecks and variances in the crack that are different than the splitter nature of the Creek. In sum, my question is, does climbing at the Creek help climb in the alpine or am I better off just spending time in Vedauwoo, Eldo, and easier "crack-heavy" routes in RMNP?

Tradsters and crack-lovers; flame away.

Took me a full season to get used to all the moves of crack climbing. Practice on easier climbs below your grade and work up. Crack climbing can be a lot of fun and gets very challenging when there's a lot of pin scars and other features. Understand what ring locks, finger stacks, and other basic moves are. The feet will always be painful when crack climbing. Sticking your foot in sideways and twisting can get old quick but fun routes make it worth it.

I should add, that (I think because of my sport climbing background) finger cracks are much more enjoyable. A finger lock feels just like a crimp basically, and without being able to jam my feet too far into the crack, it feels like toeing in on a small hold. Off-widths actually are fine too, when the crack is wide enough, it generally doesn't hurt my feet too bad. It's that Creek hand crack size, about the #2 range that the pain is just insane.

Are you turning your knee in toward the crack after putting your foot in?

I don't know if that would help with pain as I've never really had that much pain crack climbing (mostly @ Paradise Forks), somebody that did have pain and then found a way to reduce it should chime in.

TheBirdman wrote: Foot jams hurt my feet unbelievably bad. No, I'm not wearing super-aggro Muiras that are two sizes too small. I think this is only true for certain sizes of cracks since my feet obviously fit better in some compared to others, but hand cracks literally cause excruciating pain. I can hand jam pretty well, but I can move about 10 feet before the pain in my feet, specifically my toes, gets to be too much. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but I think my pain tolerance is high enough that I can comfortably say, if crack climbing hurt everyone this bad, nobody would do it. Maybe this is purely a technique issue as I'm still learning, but should I just expect crack climbing to hurt pretty badly all the time?

Crack climbing really shouldn't be painful. There are some size that might hurt a bit (ring locks...), but not excruciatingly so. Hand cracks, in particular, should not be a painful experience. When climbing hand cracks, I experience no pain in hand or feet; I find them to be quite comfortable. So, if you are in excruciating pain, something is wrong.

Shoes are a likely culprit. Even though you aren't wearing ultra-tight bouldering shoes, the shos that you are wearing may not be the right choice for crack climbing. A shoe that fits comfortably in a crack is different from a shoe that fits comfortably for faces. Are your toes totally flat in the shoes? Are you wearing stiff shoes or soft slippers? Whatever you are using, perhaps try something a bit different.

Technique, of course, is also a consideration. If you are not comfortable with your crack clibing abilities, especially when leading, you may be over-torquing your feet for security. Same can be true with hand/fist/finger jams. With time, you should learn to relax a bit, and crank a bit more lightly; this should alleviate some pain.

Also remember that, on granite, it is pretty rare that the best technique is to have both hands and both feet in the crack. Featureless faces with pure jams cracks, like at Indian Creek, are a freakish exception; they are not the norm (that is why the Creek is so special...and specialized). In the real world- outside of the wonderland that is Moab, Ut- most crack climbs are surrounded by face features. This seems very true in Colorado, in particular. Occasional use of footholds on the face will give your feet a respite from jamming, and keep the pain-and the pump- from building too much. Mastery of crack climbing involves a lot more than learning how to jam straight-in cracks. Learning how to judge when it is appropriate to jam and when it is appropriate to utilize face features is an equally important skill.

John Wilder wrote:it might be worth asking- are your toes bunched at all in your shoes? if they're not flat, thats why. also, the art of jamming with your feet is more about standing on your foot while its sideways than it is about torquing your foot hard enough so your heel is facing down and you're standing on it like you would be on the ground or while face climbing. so, less torque, flatter toes = less pain.

I'm climbing in a pair of these: 6pm.com/evolv-evo-blue-stee….

I wouldn't say their flat like a pair of Mythos, but I did get them at a garage sale and they are quite comfortable. Maybe I do need a pair of stiffer shoes, flatter though as these seem pretty soft and have a very slight downturn to them. My toes aren't "bunched up" but then again, my definition of bunched up is my Muira VS's that are two sizes too small. So, my toes curl in the Evolvs, not enough to be uncomfortable, but perhaps I need a shoe where they don't turn at all.

In regards to how I'm turning my knees, my partner who is a seasoned crack climber, said my technique was on point in terms of how far into the crack I'm foot jamming, where I'm placing my feet relative to my upper body, etc. Specifically, it's the outside toes that kill me. I did notice on the cracks that were killing my feet, I had to basically stick my foot in perpendicular to the crack, and then seriously torque it down to stand on it, but I thought that was just standard operating procedure for crack climbing.

Jon Moen wrote: Featureless faces with pure jams cracks, like at Indian Creek, are a freakish exception; they are not the norm (that is why the Creek is so special...and specialized). In the real world- outside of the wonderland that is Moab, Ut- most crack climbs are surrounded by face features. This seems very true in Colorado, in particular. Occasional use of footholds on the face will give your feet a respite from jamming, and keep the pain-and the pump- from building too much. Mastery of crack climbing involves a lot more than learning how to jam straight-in cracks. Learning how to judge when it is appropriate to jam and when it is appropriate to utilize face features is an equally important skill.

I think this is true. That said, I'm very, very comfortable face climbing. In fact, I frequently turn 5.8 cracks into 5.12+ face climbs/laybacks, it's one of my specialties (see Star Wars in Eldo for reference). My goal in going to the Creek was to force myself to only use the crack because, although unusual, crack happens, especially when climbing in alpine in places like the Eastern Sierra, where a crack is all you get with minimal or no face holds. Really what I'm saying is that if given the choice between crack and face, I always go face. However, I want to be prepared for those unique situations where you literally have nothing else if I have to follow a crux crack, my partner gets injured or incapacitated, and I also don't want to be the guy who has to plan which pitches to lead to avoid getting the crack pitch. I climb in Eldo frequently so I'm really solid at using cracks for holds and protection as well as face holds. Like I said though, I just want to be prepared.

Like many of us, probably for life.

TheBirdman wrote: I have no ambition to climb hard splitters at the Creek, I just want to be good enough that I'm comfortable on an alpine crack. Are Creek splitters good training for alpine climbing? I know granite (which is generally the rock in the alpine) forms differently than Wingate sandstone. Generally, granite has bottlenecks and variances in the crack that are different than the splitter nature of the Creek. In sum, my question is, does climbing at the Creek help climb in the alpine or am I better off just spending time in Vedauwoo, Eldo, and easier "crack-heavy" routes in RMNP?

Practice on the style of rock/crack that you wish to perform on. The Creek is a great place to perfect your jams, but at this point you may be better off getting more accustomed to granite cracks. Make a trip to Turkey Rocks, and to Fremont Canyon (WY). Run TR laps on cracks you find difficult, and try to climb it more efficiently with each lap.

Many people say that the Creek is the best place to learn to climbing cracks, but I strongly disagree with this. The Creek is too specialized, and mainly teaches you how to climb super-pure cracks. It doesn't prepare you as much for the mix of jamming, crimping, laybacking, edging, smearing, stemming, etc. that is required to get up a typical granite or gneiss crack in RMNP or elsewhere in CO/WY. I think that is is better to gain a broad base of basic crack-climbing skills on more typical granite crack climbs. Once you become competent on 5.10/5.11 cracks, then you are more ready to spend time in the creek to address your weak sizes and perfect your jamming.

There is always some pain in crack climbing, but what you're experiencing is more than necessary. Go ahead and get some really comfy shoes like the Mythos and see how it goes. They'll let you feel what is going on better and help you figure out your technique to get it to hurt less.

As someone else already addressed, I very much disagree that crack climbing is the same move over and over with no regard for sequence. It's true of many Indian Creek climbs, and it's good to do these because as you say, you have no choice but to work on your technique. But being able to easily switch from crack to face to friction and back will open up lots of possibilities for you. If your favorite way to get up a 5.8 crack is to turn it into a 5.12 layback... well, you're robbing yourself of a lot of endurance.

As you're aware, face climbs rarely go to the tops of mountains. Figure out how to climb cracks efficiently and you'll go far.

TheBirdman wrote: I think this is true. That said, I'm very, very comfortable face climbing. In fact, I frequently turn 5.8 cracks into 5.12+ face climbs/laybacks, it's one of my specialties (see Star Wars in Eldo for reference). My goal in going to the Creek was to force myself to only use the crack because, although unusual, crack happens, especially when climbing in alpine in places like the Eastern Sierra, where a crack is all you get with minimal or no face holds. Really what I'm saying is that if given the choice between crack and face, I always go face. However, I want to be prepared for those unique situations where you literally have nothing else if I have to follow a crux crack, my partner gets injured or incapacitated, and I also don't want to be the guy who has to plan which pitches to lead to avoid getting the crack pitch. I climb in Eldo frequently so I'm really solid at using cracks for holds and protection as well as face holds. Like I said though, I just want to be prepared.

In that case, maybe spending some time at the Creek is the way to go.

Also, I really think that it is better to learn crack skills on TR. Climbing securely and climbing efficiently are often conflicting goals. When on lead, the urge is to go for maximum security with each move, so as to avoid the whip; this often leads to inefficient technique. TR laps allow you to play around without worrying about security, making it easier to force yourself to try unfamiliar techniques. One fun technique-refinement drill that I like is to drop a rope on a crack climb and try to contrive different ways of climbing it. Try climbing only with straight-in jams, such that face holds are "off"; try liebacking it; try climbing only using the face holds. This separates out each technique, allowing you to understand it in isolation. See how each of these feel, and then try to climb it "normally" using the best combination fo these techniques. Also, if you climbed a particular crack pitch badly on lead, then go back and climb it on TR/second and force yourself to use the crack more, even if it feels unnatural at first.

When climbing crack oriented stuff at Lumpy, RMNP, Zion, the Voo, or the Creek I generally use TC Pros, which have a bit of padding in them for jamming and are high tops. They are sized such that I can walk the descent back to my pack and then eat lunch with little to no discomfort while wearing them but still have sensitivity for moderately harder pitches (5.11 or so). I have zero pain in these shoes and my toes are totally flat in there. That being said, I know what you mean. Indian Creek hand cracks can be weird on my feet too. The flares are the Voo can be more forgiving I think. The TC pros are expensive and happen to fit my feet just so. They are worth a look. You'll get it, just keep at it. Good luck with the Diamond!

TheBirdman wrote: Another question I'll pose is that I don't like crack climbing. For me, it removes one of the most fun and challenging parts of climbing, figuring out sequences. I'm sure there is some sequencing that goes on when crack climbing, either in terms of placing gear, handling a steep section or a pod, etc., but I don't think it's a stretch to say, it's basically the same move over and over.

this might be one of the reasons that crack climbing is giving you a hard time - that you don't understand the technical aspects, but think you do. on easy cracks there might not be particular sequences, but this can also be said for easy face climbing. when you start climbing harder cracks, you will realize that there are sequencing issues. also, another issue is that with pure crack climbing, your body is often harder to control in terms of inertia about your vertical axis (ie barn dooring).

when it comes to foot pain, try to 'lay' your feet into the crack, instead of 'jamming' them into the crack. i often hear/read that you should put your foot in the crack with your lower leg parallel to the ground, and then crank your knee towards vertical. i think this is vastly overstated. if you are climbing a hand crack, you shouldn't have to 'crank' your foot in there so hard. just lay it in there, and rotate your knee enough to 'seat' your foot a bit, but not crank/crush your foot painfully.

like anything worth doing, it takes practice. also, if you do it on a consistent basis your feet get used to it. for me, the first couple trips of the season are tough on the toes, particularly on the thin hands to off-fingers sizes. but, after a while you just kill the nerves and hope they don't grow back :)

1 year 2 days, 3 hrs. and 27 minutes.

Seriously though, different shoes will help. The Evo's aren't very stiff so basically instead of torquing the shoe which mostly maintains it's shape you're torquing the shoe and it deforms so that deformation is transferred to your feet, thus pain. Something with a thicker, full length midsole might help. If I remember correctly the Evo's have a .5mm half midsole. I've got a pair of Bandits that are 1.5mm and I climb relatively comfortably.

Also after a while you'll get more used to it. At first jamming is really painful but as your technique improves (and your nerve endings get damaged) it hurts less. I've been crack climbing for years and it still hurts a little bit but not much.

Harder cracks tend to have a sequence, that tends to be why they're harder. The challenge as I've done harder cracks is figuring out the sequence and utilizing difficult, off size jams.

You don't need to go to the Creek to get good at crack climbing. I've only been to the Creek and Vedauwoo once each and the hardest crack I've climbed is 5.11b. I've been to Turkey Rocks a lot though. I'd say doing the crack routes at Lumpy, Eldo, Splatte, and around near you is sufficient but you'll get more bang for your buck at the Creek. You won't have to walk around to find pure cracks like you will at some of those other areas.

Any technique you learn is going to help your climbing overall so I'll say yes, crack climbing in the Creek will help your alpine climbing in the same way learning to flag at CCC will. Probably more so.

shuminW wrote: To the OP, with your current attitude, it'll take a long time. Embrace the challenge and you'll learn much more quickly.

Not really sure where in my post I expressed an unwillingness to learn or embrace the challenge. In fact, the point of this post is because I'm trying to learn and embracing the challenge. I just don't like the feeling that the only thing keeping me from sending is my ability to tolerate pain. Hence why I asked for some help, advice, pointers, and other people's experiences.

My comments about sequencing were just that,unlike sport climbing where you have to assess the holds available to you and the best way to move through them, and perhaps it's due to my inexperience, crack climbing doesn't appear to have that element to me at this point. Unlike high-end bouldering or sport climbing, where each movement requires a careful analysis of how to use each hold and move efficiently to the next, crack climbing seems to be much less varied just due to the uniform nature of cracks. Admittedly, I have no experience in hard cracks and like I said originally, changes in the crack size, availability of face holds, changes to steepness, and protection will all certainly force you to sequence, think, and plan ahead.

It seems like changing shoes and dialing my foot technique so I'm not overtorqueing could be helpful. One other poster mentioned how the flared cracks in the 'Voo are much friendlier than the splitters in the Creek and I couldn't agree more. I get no pain in the 'Voo and can seemingly always find a decent place to jam my foot. I'm also just thinking hand jam size cracks just may not fit my feet very well.

TheBirdman wrote:So, my toes curl in the Evolvs, not enough to be uncomfortable, but perhaps I need a shoe where they don't turn at all.

This is your pain problem. They need to be flat. Like, look at your feet when you're not wearing any shoes and note the natural curling of your toes. That's just about the limit to how curled your toes can be before jams become really painful. When you stand in the shoes in the store, you should feel every toe pressing on the ground.

As for crack sequence, I've been boned, HARD, when I wouldn't make big enough moves, forcing me to put, for instance, my right hand in a jam where the next move required my left hand to be there. The harder the crack gets, the more sequential it gets, so in areas like Vedauwoo, the Bridwell grading system (eg 10a vs. 10-) is very useful. Indian Creek is a whole other animal, owing to the rarity of pods in hand cracks, but its very noticeable on finger cracks: put the wrong hand in a flare, and you'll have issues.

Get a shoe that is board lasted. This means it cannot bend in the middle and crush your foot. I climb in the trad masters but many shoes have this 'stiffness'. Good luck.

TheBirdman wrote: Unlike high-end bouldering or sport climbing, ...... I have no experience in hard cracks

Therein lies the trouble. Generally, harder climbs are more interesting, more sequential, more inspiring, etc. If you are comparing high-end sport to moderate trad puttering, then the moderate puttering isn't going to seem that exciting. 5.8 cracks generally don't require a high level of focused precision or a wild sequence, like a 5.12+ sport route will. In this comparison, the 5.8 crack seems pretty dull. A 5.8 sport route doesn't require much sequence or precision either, though; in fact, the 5.8 crack is probably the more aesthetic and interesting of the two. Compare 5.8 cracks to 5.8 faces, and 5.12 cracks to 5.12 faces. In these comparisons, I think that you'll find the cracks to be plenty sequential and interesting.

Some people just happen to have super sensitive feet. If you ski, how do your feet feel in ski boots? My dad can't even weight a foot jam without it causing him severe pain and that is in super comfortable mythos. I can wear shoes that have my toes completely curled and stand of foot jams all day with only mild discomfort. Maybe try wearing a loose shoe that you can wear thick socks with for extra padding. Maybe take some ibuprofen. Maybe go to the base of a climb and stand on foot jams for a couple hours to kill off all those bothersome nerves. Try jamming the foot in at different depths ranging from just the tip of the shoe to burying your foot to the ankle.

You don't need a board lasted shoe to make foot jams less painful. I do foot jams in Moccasyms and they are usually fairly comfortable. It's really your technique. Try pointing your toes straight down into the crack if it is too painful. You won't be torquing the foot at all that way.

I happen to wear the same shoes (Evolv Evo) as you for most of my serious jamming. They are great at climbing crack, if they're sized properly.

My street shoe size is an 8, my crack shoes are size 9.5. They feel kinda like bedroom slippers, and they jam like none other. Not only are they comfortable, but they actually jam better in thin cracks. For further comparison, the Anasazis that I sport climb in are a size 7.

Crack climbing should be comfortable unless you are climbing super-sharp rock.

Phillip