BD Cobra Failure PSA

I doubt they'll give you a whole new tool, most likely they'll remove the broken screw with an "easy out" type bit and pop a new one in there. The tool isn't destroyed by the broken screw.

Am I silly to think that if the secondary rest broke while you where doubling up you would have your lower hand to support the upper?

Now if the grip ripped off while climbing I'd be copy and pasting to every ice forum in the world...

I think everyone who opened this thread was relieved to know their $650 tools don't have a major design flaw that was going to kill them this weekend... ; )

While I'm not a big fan of bd anymore there warranty dept should take care of ya . I can't
Imagine why they wouldn't .

I'd have to agree with the other posters who think you might have jumped the gun on posting just because the plastic upper grip broke due to what appears to be a misplaced blow.????

I remember several years ago when the new cobras suffered from the heads popping off .

A few comments:

Eli: The problem is the next move after you have doubled up leaves one hand in the second position (solely on this second position rest) while you pick up the other tool (from your shoulder) and swing. If the second position rest fails while you are in this state you most likely won't be on the ice for long.

Killis: The post title of this article does not coincide with the hyperbolic example you have posted. I'll break it down for you so we are on the same page. BD Cobra Failure PSA.

BD Cobra: Make and model of the tool (pretty easy to grasp that concept)

Failure: The second position mounting bolt failed on this tool. Not the plastic rest itself but the mounting bolt. There is no two ways about this... The bolt failed. The end. My guess is you are not an ice climber and probably not an engineer if you think there is no difference between a second position mounting bolt and a "grommet on a tool". Here is the definition of a grommet - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grommet

PSA - Public Service Announcement - The point of this post was to point out that 1) perhaps the mounting bolts securing these rests aren't as strong as people had thought. I had used them pretty care free for a while and I know a lot of people who climb leashless and commonly go into the second position for big reaches, etc. and 2) Perhaps this was a quality control issue and it does deserve some attention. Either way, if its not useful for you - move on.

iceman: I'm not sure where you got the conclusion that this appears to be from a misplaced blow. Those were not my words and I can tell you with high confidence that a misplaced blow was not cause of the failure of the mounting bolt.

Hope this helps. I'm happy to answer any questions but I'm going to try to refrain from justifying the rational for posting. I think the thread title is accurate and I hope some people learn something from this. Regardless of whether BD fixes the tool or not, the point is not that I'm upset that I'd be out some $$$. The point is that had this failed while the climber was on lead, he could have been seriously hurt. If you are of the mind set that this is not a failure or even not a serious failure, I question your judgement.

A broken bolt doesn't constitute a "Cobra Failure" in my book nor does that look life threatening. The bolt looks defective. 10 minutes with an EZ Out will fix that. Call BD and move on.

have you talked to anyone at BD yet?

I think some people on this thread would have a different perspective if they were 30' above their last screw, matching on one tool, and 'the little pinky rest' broke off on them. Depending on the situation you're in, this could actually turn in to a life or death situation.

If you were transitioning to your other tool, had only one hand on, and were on marginal front points; that piece breaking off could be just enough to create a fall.

Seems kind of ridiculous to me to say that piece isn't intended to hold body weight. WTF is it intended for if not to support your body weight?

S Denny wrote:have you talked to anyone at BD yet?

Yes and they said they would look at it and probably replace the tool. I have no complaints about the way they are treating me - But this is an important issue that people need to understand.

@Crag Dweller: Agreed

Crag Dweller wrote:Seems kind of ridiculous to me to say that piece isn't intended to hold body weight. WTF is it intended for if not to support your body weight?

Really?

Its a pinky rest to support your hand on the tool. The tool itself, the shaft and the pick combo, are designed to support your weight.

I wouldn't turn the tool around, hang full weight on either the fang or the strike plastic bits, and expect them to hold much of any of my body weight. Really?

The fact that these attach, especially the strike, with small diameter bolts, and, they can be removed easily, reinforces that they aren't for body weight. The tool just isn't built that way. They aren't "built in" features.

If you're hanging full body weight off of only either the fang or the strike, then, you're not using the tool correctly.

Brian in SLC wrote: Really? Its a pinky rest to support your hand on the tool.

What does 'support your hand' even mean? Just the weight of the bones, muscles, etc within my hand? That doesn't make any sense.

Your hands are supporting at least some portion of the weight of your body, which is then transfered to the strike. Sure, you're also supporting a portion by your grip on the tool as well as through whatever other points of contact you have. But, if you're supporting your hand with the strike, you're supporting some portion of your body weight. And, in delicately balanced situations, it takes very little to throw you off that balance, which could result in a fall.

Sure, I wouldn't hang my full body weight from them either. Just as I try not to hang my full body weight from a tiny two-finger crimper. I try to spread the support across every point of contact. But, if that crimper breaks, I may very well fall simply because of my balance has been thrown off and the other points of contact aren't sufficient to handle the increased load that results.

And, regarding the construction, that tiny bolt isn't much smaller in diameter (if at all) than the bolt holding my front point in place on my crampon. And, that bolt is definitely intended to hold at least body weight.

edited: realized that i had the bolt description backwards.

Crag Dweller,

You're trying to use logic and reason to discuss this issue with people who are unwilling to move beyond their emotions. Since they feel that it's OK for this METAL BOLT TO SHEER OFF FLUSH WITH THE GRIP, they are unwilling to look past the fact that a metal bolt doesn't snap like that unless it is subjected to MASSIVE or repeated abuse OR it was a defective part used in a climbing tool. If it was defective then BD should be very concerned that this type of thing is happening, considering the way in which people are using these tools when climbing mixed or hard ice.

To put a finger rest on a climbing tool and then say don't weight it is simply retarded. How could one avoid weighting this rest when it's sole purpose is to provide the user with a better, more secure attachment point while they are, effectively, hanging on it?

Yarp wrote:...To put a finger rest on a climbing tool and then say don't weight it is simply retarded...

damn, it took me like 200 words to try and say that one sentence. i need to work on my efficiency.

Crag Dweller wrote:I think some people on this thread would have a different perspective if they were 30' above their last screw, matching on one tool, and 'the little pinky rest' broke off on them. Depending on the situation you're in, this could actually turn in to a life or death situation. If you were transitioning to your other tool, had only one hand on, and were on marginal front points; that piece breaking off could be just enough to create a fall. Seems kind of ridiculous to me to say that piece isn't intended to hold body weight. WTF is it intended for if not to support your body weight?

But that didn't happen. In fact, you don't know when the rest even broke.

Yarp wrote:Crag Dweller, You're trying to use logic and reason to discuss this issue with people who are unwilling to move beyond their emotions. Since they feel that it's OK for this METAL BOLT TO SHEER OFF FLUSH WITH THE GRIP, they are unwilling to look past the fact that a metal bolt doesn't snap like that unless it is subjected to MASSIVE or repeated abuse OR it was a defective part used in a climbing tool. If it was defective then BD should be very concerned that this type of thing is happening, considering the way in which people are using these tools when climbing mixed or hard ice. To put a finger rest on a climbing tool and then say don't weight it is simply retarded. How could one avoid weighting this rest when it's sole purpose is to provide the user with a better, more secure attachment point while they are, effectively, hanging on it?

Please point me to other reports of this happening. I see a single instance of a bolt breaking and an image of what looks like a defective bolt. I'd like to also bash Black Diamond but I need a stronger case. If possible also include any instances of Black Diamond kicking or stomping your cat (or kitten).

haha... Black Diamond is yet to kick or stomp my cat or kitten but that would make a good story!

I don't think the pinky rest is supposed to support body weight either... I think it's designed as a pinky "rest" I think most my weight is supported by my hand wrapped around the shaft of the axe. No one really believes that that little plastic nubbie is weight bearing do they? Does anyone believe weight bearing things are made out of plastic?

I would guess this happened from the screw not being tight enough, thereby creating play and more stress on the nubbie. (Or maybe too tight) In fact, I'm gonna make sure mine are nicely tightened to make sure I don't experience a similar issue.

We gotta remember guys this is the first time anyone has heard of this happening. Black Diamond has sold a ba'gillion vipers and cobra's... this is a fluke.

(this is a good thread, I've been enjoying it)

Ray Pinpillage wrote: But that didn't happen. In fact, you don't know when the rest even broke.

What happened is the bolt sheared off. And, based on the information provided it did so under relatively small forces. If the OP had done something to generate significant force against the piece, he probably would've known when that happened. That's not what he described and I see no reason to question the story.

Bashing BD? Who's bashing? Pointing out a potential problem is a far cry from bashing.

Eli Harry wrote: I don't think the pinky rest is supposed to support body weight either... I think it's designed as a pinky "rest" I think most my weight is supported by my hand wrapped around the shaft of the axe. No one really believes that that little plastic nubbie is weight bearing do they? Does anyone believe weight bearing things are made out of plastic? ...

There's a company that makes plastic stoppers! A lot of camp chairs are made with plastic joints holding them together. Then, of course, there are plastic chairs, stools, ladders even, patios, etc. And, I'm pretty sure all of those things are weight bearing. Plastic isn't necessarily a weak or fragile material.

I would love for someone to explain to me how it is they rest their pinky on the strike or fang w/o putting any weight on it. And, I'd like to know how much better they climb with rested pinkies.

All that said, it is totally possible and maybe even likely that the screw sheared off because it was too loose or too tight. Hopefully, we'll see what BD says when they inspect the tool.

Crag Dweller wrote:I would love for someone to explain to me how it is they rest their pinky on the strike or fang w/o putting any weight on it.

Here's my analogy. Similar to parking your car on a hill, and, knowing the parking brake might not work, stuff a brick against the downhill side of the tire. You wouldn't expect that brick to take the whole weight of the car. Its just a rest, like a little speed bump, to take enough weight off to maintain that resting position.

My pinkys are much more rested when they haven't been bashed against the ice.

Rubber grips, friction tape, sticky leather gloves...all makes hanging off those ice tools easier. Ditto a pinky rest.

Brian in SLC wrote: Here's my analogy. Similar to parking your car on a hill, and, knowing the parking brake might not work, stuff a brick against the downhill side of the tire. You wouldn't expect that brick to take the whole weight of the car. Its just a rest, like a little speed bump, to take enough weight off to maintain that resting position. My pinkys are much more rested when they haven't been bashed against the ice. Rubber grips, friction tape, sticky leather gloves...all makes hanging off those ice tools easier. Ditto a pinky rest.

If you thought that brick would crumble under a portion of the vehicle's weight, you wouldn't use it. And, in fact, you probably should expect the brick to bear the full weight of the car. It's a brick. They bear far more weight when they're holding up buildings. That's why you use it.

And, you use the pinky rest because you trust it to reliably hold some significant portion of your body weight. I wouldn't hang my whole body off the thing either. But, I also wouldn't put any weight on it if I didn't trust it to hold a lot more of my weight than I'm putting on it.

Crag Dweller wrote:They bear far more weight when they're holding up buildings.

That's kinda it in a nutshell.

There will always be people who expect a single brick to hold the weight of an entire building, just like some folks expect pinky rests to hold their entire body weight, and, spinner leashes to be solid for anchoring, and gear loops on harnesses...etc.

Unreasonable expectations. Has to drive the gear manufacturers and designers nuts.

I guess we should all go back to using nothing but steel locking carabiners and tying straight into the rope...heavy sigh...

Ha ha (insert one of those laughing emoticons here). Just kiddin'.

Brian in SLC wrote: That's kinda it in a nutshell. There will always be people who expect a single brick to hold the weight of an entire building, just like some folks expect pinky rests to hold their entire body weight, and, spinner leashes to be solid for anchoring, and gear loops on harnesses...etc. Unreasonable expectations. Has to drive the gear manufacturers and designers nuts. I guess we should all go back to using nothing but steel locking carabiners and tying straight into the rope...heavy sigh... Ha ha (insert one of those laughing emoticons here). Just kiddin'.

Actually, a single brick does bear the weight of an entire building. Or, at least the weight of everything above it. So, that single brick at the base of a two-story building is bearing at least as much as a lot of cars weigh. And, technically, it's subject to the force that each one of those bricks above create due to the force of gravity. Plus the roof and stuff.

Of course, when you start talking about steel framed buildings and such, things change a bit. But, that's getting way too far into the weeds.

In any case, it's not unreasonable to expect a bolt that is nearly as big as the one holding the front point of your crampon to bear your body weight. Especially, when it's designed to provide a more secure grip for your hands, which are bearing your full body weight.