When is it okay to open your mouth?

C Travis wrote: I'm not trying to get in between or pick a fight but... Don't you think there's a significant difference between a soloist and the situation described in the OP? I feel like rational judgement could readily make the differentiation between when to pipe up about a sketchy situation that could be prevented and when somebody's out soloing. At least the guys I know certainly look like they have their wits about them even when their ropes aren't. Either way, if they tell me to go fuck myself and they deck, is it on me? HELL NO Will I help anyway? YEP, but at least I won't wonder if a simple "you got this?" head-check would've prevented the whole thing. Again, that's just me. I don't expect it of others and I don't think that anyone else climbing should either.

I see what you're saying and say to do whatever makes you feel right about the situation. My argument is that it's not on you whatsoever whether you do or do not say anything. Maybe you pipe up, they get distracted responding to you and then fall. Then it might be on you a bit.

Lest these hypothetical situations continually get bent to a point where the Society to Protect the Soloists cries "murderer!", of course I and most here would help in a situation that merits it. Like you point out though, most soloists have their shit together. And all of them, signed consent form or no, took on everything that soloing entails once they start climbing sans protection.

The outcome of this particular alleged non-incident, however, is that nobody got hurt.

GMBurns wrote: BTW - feel free to pop in from time to time to say hi. We miss the Cochise TRs.

I'm done with fish.

Zeke wrote: I see what you're saying and say to do whatever makes you feel right about the situation. My argument is that it's not on you whatsoever whether you do or do not say anything. Maybe you pipe up, they get distracted responding to you and then fall. Then it might be on you a bit. Lest these hypothetical situations continually get bent to a point where the Society to Protect the Soloists cries "murderer!", of course I and most here would help in a situation that merits it. Like you point out though, most soloists have their shit together. And all of them, signed consent form or no, took on everything that soloing entails once they start climbing sans protection. The outcome of this particular alleged non-incident, however, is that nobody got hurt.

Right on, man. I gotcha. Good points => appreciated, respected, and agreed [not that it matters whether I agree ;)].

Honestly if what someone is doing on the rock makes you uncomfortable SPEAK up! The guidence I have recieved from my elders has saved my ass more than once. Even if they continue to do what they are doing you will have peace of mind knowing that you attempted to alter the situation. It is when people do nothing that tragedies happen, and people are harmed. If more people were to speak up, and actually do something about the things that bother them the world would be a much better place.
Just my ¢2

Zeke wrote: I'm done with fish.

Naw, we were never that bad. The other guys? Sure, but us? No way. Use a different name if you're worried about fish.

BTW - regarding your comment above to C Travis, that's pretty much what I was trying to say, albeit crappily (if I'm allowed to make up a word).

JoeP wrote:CascadeKid, reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.

+1

GMBurns wrote: Naw, we were never that bad. The other guys? Sure, but us? No way. Use a different name if you're worried about fish. BTW - regarding your comment above to C Travis, that's pretty much what I was trying to say, albeit crappily (if I'm allowed to make up a word).

Eh? I was quoting that Charlie Kaufman film.

I'm sure all you guys do really good work, I just have too many time sinks going to keep that one up.

"Crappily" works for me.

JoeP wrote: CascadeKid, reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.

Crag Dweller wrote: +1

and your assumptions are quite poor. I replied to Crag Dweller's post and then addressed JoeP and his question. My post was a satirical question/scenario to JoeP that demonstrated the ridiculousness of this whole debate. It could have been addressed to anyone and wasn't reflective of your/their opinion on the matter...

I liked the thread about adding a bolt on Double Cross better.

CascadeKid wrote: and your assumptions are quite poor. I replied to Crag Dweller's post and then addressed JoeP and his question. My post was a satirical question/scenario to JoeP that demonstrated the ridiculousness of this whole debate. It could have been addressed to anyone and wasn't reflective of your/their opinion on the matter...

Case in point:

CascadeKid wrote: Personally, I take grave offense when someone tells me how to live my life, as I don't tell anyone else how to live theirs. I wonder how many people take offense when an evangelical tells you how to live your life....

Please show me where I wrote anything that could be interpreted to mean that I would tell people how to live their lives.

I certainly didn't say anything about telling someone how to live his life. I stated that I would say something if, for instance, I saw someone using dangerously bad belay technique. Are you trying to equate my explaining the importance of keeping the brake hand on the rope to telling someone how to live his life?

And, your first reply was to point out that my intentions were selfish rather than altruistic. How could you possibly have interpreted my post to be a claim that my intentions are altruistic? I couldn't have made it more obvious they aren't altruistic short of explicitly stating that.

There have been quite a few of these threads cropping up lately...

To those of you who say "Natural Selection" etc., etc.: You guys are cooler than the rest of us, but you're still assholes.

Please, if any of you see me making a mistake when I'm out climbing, or skiing, or driving my car, PLEASE tell me. I'm a man. I can take it.

I haven't been playing this climbing game long enough (18 years) to stop making mistakes. Those of you who have, good for you.

Let me give you an example: four years ago, I accidentally unlocked a climbing partner from my belay thinking her locker was my own. Someone else at the belay said, "hey bud, I think you might not want to do that." I wasn't cool enough to slap the shit out of him like some of you would. I thanked him. My partner thanked him. I fucked up, and someone else stepped in and prevented something very bad.

If I see you fucking up, I'm going to say something to you. If this gets your panties in a twist, well that's your problem. I am not talking about soloing, or running it out, or your strange new experimental anchor. I'm talking about when you fuck up. What you do with it after I say something is up to you.

I will add: I have been asked by roped climbers while I was soloing if all was cool. I thanked them, and assured them I was fine. It didn't bruise my ego at all. I'm not as awesome as you.

The Bobby wrote:There have been quite a few of these threads cropping up lately... To those of you who say "Natural Selection" etc., etc.: You guys are cooler than the rest of us, but you're still assholes. Please, if any of you see me making a mistake when I'm out climbing, or skiing, or driving my car, PLEASE tell me. I'm a man. I can take it. I haven't been playing this climbing game long enough (18 years) to stop making mistakes. Those of you who have, good for you. Let me give you an example: four years ago, I accidentally unlocked a climbing partner from my belay thinking her locker was my own. Someone else at the belay said, "hey bud, I think you might not want to do that." I wasn't cool enough to slap the shit out of him like some of you would. I thanked him. My partner thanked him. I fucked up, and someone else stepped in and prevented something very bad. If I see you fucking up, I'm going to say something to you. If this gets your panties in a twist, well that's your problem. I am not talking about soloing, or running it out, or your strange new experimental anchor. I'm talking about when you fuck up. What you do with it after I say something is up to you. I will add: I have been asked by roped climbers while I was soloing if all was cool. I thanked them, and assured them I was fine. It didn't bruise my ego at all. I'm not as awesome as you.

Most level headed thing I've read on this forum...looks like you have your ego in check!

The Bobby wrote:There have been quite a few of these threads cropping up lately... To those of you who say "Natural Selection" etc., etc.: You guys are cooler than the rest of us, but you're still assholes. Please, if any of you see me making a mistake when I'm out climbing, or skiing, or driving my car, PLEASE tell me. I'm a man. I can take it. I haven't been playing this climbing game long enough (18 years) to stop making mistakes. Those of you who have, good for you. Let me give you an example: four years ago, I accidentally unlocked a climbing partner from my belay thinking her locker was my own. Someone else at the belay said, "hey bud, I think you might not want to do that." I wasn't cool enough to slap the shit out of him like some of you would. I thanked him. My partner thanked him. I fucked up, and someone else stepped in and prevented something very bad. If I see you fucking up, I'm going to say something to you. If this gets your panties in a twist, well that's your problem. I am not talking about soloing, or running it out, or your strange new experimental anchor. I'm talking about when you fuck up. What you do with it after I say something is up to you. I will add: I have been asked by roped climbers while I was soloing if all was cool. I thanked them, and assured them I was fine. It didn't bruise my ego at all. I'm not as awesome as you.

Id climb with you any day of the week

Yeah...ummmm...OK bobby. Thanks for the pep talk. Who on this board said anything about being cooler than anyone else because they mind their own fucking business? Also thanks so much for relaying your story of how you almost killed one of your climbing partners. Glad they caught your mistake for you. No one on here claimed they don't make mistakes nor did anyone say they personally were not open to constructive criticism. Not sure who you are marshaling the troops against with your little rant there, but from what I can tell, it doesn't really have much to do with this thread.

This thread was about spouting your opinion all over the crag and insisting that total strangers do everything the way you do. If someone wants to go out and kill themselves who the hell are you or I to tell them they can't? Why would you even bother caring? It has no effect on you, or anyone else but the person climbing in a way you don't like.

I offer advice to noobs when they wander up to the rock with a shiny rope and are obviously looking for advice. Hell, I've been interupted by a complete stranger because they wanted to know how to tie into the rope before they took off. I offered a bit of advice, shook my head and left the crag. Don't know what happened after that. Not my concern.

The Bobby wrote:There have been quite a few of these threads cropping up lately... To those of you who say "Natural Selection" etc., etc.: You guys are cooler than the rest of us, but you're still assholes. Please, if any of you see me making a mistake when I'm out climbing, or skiing, or driving my car, PLEASE tell me. I'm a man. I can take it. I haven't been playing this climbing game long enough (18 years) to stop making mistakes. Those of you who have, good for you. Let me give you an example: four years ago, I accidentally unlocked a climbing partner from my belay thinking her locker was my own. Someone else at the belay said, "hey bud, I think you might not want to do that." I wasn't cool enough to slap the shit out of him like some of you would. I thanked him. My partner thanked him. I fucked up, and someone else stepped in and prevented something very bad. If I see you fucking up, I'm going to say something to you. If this gets your panties in a twist, well that's your problem. I am not talking about soloing, or running it out, or your strange new experimental anchor. I'm talking about when you fuck up. What you do with it after I say something is up to you. I will add: I have been asked by roped climbers while I was soloing if all was cool. I thanked them, and assured them I was fine. It didn't bruise my ego at all. I'm not as awesome as you.

Well said. One can only hope to climb with level headed people such as yourself. Like someone else said, I'd climb w/ you any day of the week.

Yarp: We can always count on you to go over the top. Personally I appreciate it... really. I'd also climb with you any day of the week.

Yarp wrote:Yeah...ummmm...OK bobby. Thanks for the pep talk. Who on this board said anything about being cooler than anyone else because they mind their own fucking business? Also thanks so much for relaying your story of how you almost killed one of your climbing partners. Glad they caught your mistake for you. No one on here claimed they don't make mistakes nor did anyone say they personally were not open to constructive criticism. Not sure who you are marshaling the troops against with your little rant there, but from what I can tell, it doesn't really have much to do with this thread. This thread was about spouting your opinion all over the crag and insisting that total strangers do everything the way you do. If someone wants to go out and kill themselves who the hell are you or I to tell them they can't? Why would you even bother caring? It has no effect on you, or anyone else but the person climbing in a way you don't like. I offer advice to noobs when they wander up to the rock with a shiny rope and are obviously looking for advice. Hell, I've been interupted by a complete stranger because they wanted to know how to tie into the rope before they took off. I offered a bit of advice, shook my head and left the crag. Don't know what happened after that. Not my concern.

You know Yarp, for a person who thinks everyone should mind their own fucking business, you spend alot of time telling people how they should behave.*

* just sayin'

Zeke wrote: Eh? I was quoting that Charlie Kaufman film. I'm sure all you guys do really good work, I just have too many time sinks going to keep that one up. "Crappily" works for me.

well the offer obviously stands (not like we can keep the riffraff out anyway), and I have no clue who charlie kaufman is.

edit - now that i've seen his imdb, spotless mind was a DAMN interesting movie. I've never seen malkovich or adaptation, but i've heard they each were really good, too.

Yo Bobby, ain't about being cool enough. I see you unlock your locker with me on the sharp end, depends on my mood. I might say no big deal the possibility of the gate opening is probably small, or i cut the effing rope myself, down climb and slap the shit outta you dog. Then light up a joint on the way back to my car.

I just wanted to add my two cents... If they die at the crag and the landowner/local government closes it to climbing would you be mad? Lets pick an example near me.... The Catslab in Clear Creek Canyon- People make mistakes (were human after all) Experienced and inexperienced climbers both have died here lowering off the end of ropes that were too short. The landowner was sued and closed the crag...It stayed closed for quite a few years until the local government bought it and now it is reopened, Now who is to say that this wont happen again at a local crag near you? If one jackass spoils it for all the rest of us... you probably would have wished you would have opened your mouth...But lets be respectful, you can say what needs to be said just be an adult about it, if they ignore you it may be time to look for a new crag. I'm all for natural selection but do we really need more deaths associated with climbing? Be safe and be respectful of everyone because unless you truly own the land, you have no right to tell people wtf to do, but in that respect they don't have a right to ruin your day. Have Fun, Be Safe.