Isn't top roping the same as sport climbing?

Here in the Midwest we climb as Devils Lake and are made fun of because of the hordes of top ropers. I for one, do alot of leading there but it struck me that TR seems to embrace the same attributes of sport climbing.

Sport climbing is about the "moves" right? The difficulty is what's important not the gear. TR is the SAME way! In fact I would surmise that "sport climbing" as we know exists because setting up a TR was impossible due to an unaccessable top or because the climbing was too overhanging and the swing from a fall would be dangerous.

With all this talk about perma-draws (see my other thread) it looks like those who sport climb are strictly interested in the same attributes of TR and not the added difficulty of placing their own gear. To each their own.

Very interesting!

Are you trying to run through all the classic troll fodder this weekend? Good God, man, get out and climb, you are ruining the interwebs.

Nick, is it a rainout at DL all weekend? But seriously, I say bouldering is more comparable to sport due to the goal of just a few feet of hard moves. Top roping often is just an easy introduction to rock for the first timer. We're not all trying to just 'achieve cosmic purity on 5.11' as once said by famous DL climbers.

I think there's a lot of truth to what you say, Nick. But for me there's still one big difference: sport climbing is all about the lead. Granted, a well-protected lead which requires no thought in protecting. When I climb a TR, it's just about getting in a quick lap with none of the sense of accomplishment that comes from getting a clean lead.

Nick Rhoads wrote: TR is the SAME way! In fact I would surmise that "sport climbing" as we know exists because setting up a TR was impossible due to an unaccessable top or because the climbing was too overhanging and the swing from a fall would be dangerous.

Sport climbing (at least in the US)didn't start because top roping was inconvenient. It started because we needed bolts to survive multiple attempts on really hard, unprotected faces. The cracks in most well established climbing areas were mostly climbed, new climbs depended on either fearless and committed hone masters or a different approach. And no one did it so that more people would take to climbing.

No. While top roping is a perfectly legitimate form of climbing it is not the same as leading a bolted route.

Nick Rhoads wrote:Here in the Midwest we climb as Devils Lake and are made fun of because of the hordes of top ropers. I for one, do alot of leading there but it struck me that TR seems to embrace the same attributes of sport climbing. In fact I would surmise that "sport climbing" as we know exists because setting up a TR was impossible due to an unaccessable top or because the climbing was too overhanging and the swing from a fall would be dangerous.

You so know little about climbing it astounds me. There needs to be a filter put on this site for people who don't actually live around climbing and climbers so they can't hi-jack discussion like this. These are they type of idiotic beliefs (and wierd habits) that you develop when you climb in complete isolation from the rest of the clmbing community and there is no one around you to show you the ropes. Without guidence you can get stuck with a stupid belief and then announce it to the world as a resoned opinion, which it is not. At least you admitted this stupidity was developed at Devils Lake, which is unsuprising, knowing Devils Lake. I agree with Mike, Big fish in a microscopic pond.

Mike R: Where is that?

If TR = Sport Climbing then I can't wait for the day that people start installing auto belays out at the crag. I mean, it's all the same, right?

I also can't wait for this years TRCS Nationals (Top Rope Climbing Series). Hopefully Sharma will make an appearance and show us all how a real man top ropes.

Mike Lane wrote:Mike R: Where is that?

Mike,

I believe that is Crystal Cave in NM, and I am pretty sure that isn't actually a picture of Mike R.

Johny Q wrote: You so know little about climbing it astounds me. There needs to be a filter put on this site for people who don't actually live around climbing and climbers so they can't hi-jack discussion like this. These are they type of idiotic beliefs (and wierd habits) that you develop when you climb in complete isolation from the rest of the clmbing community and there is no one around you to show you the ropes. Without guidence you can get stuck with a stupid belief and then announce it to the world as a resoned opinion, which it is not. At least you admitted this stupidity was developed at Devils Lake, which is unsuprising, knowing Devils Lake. I agree with Mike, Big fish in a microscopic pond.

Whoa, there, big fella. You signed up a week ago, and already you're flaming like a grouchy old man. (like me) I agree that this guy is naive, but that's a lot of vitriol for a guy with no info on his profile page.

If you didnt lead it you didnt send it.

TR is almost mindless climbing. When you tie in to the sharp end you are actually engaging your brain.

Joe Huggins wrote: Whoa, there, big fella. You signed up a week ago, and already you're flaming like a grouchy old man. (like me) I agree that this guy is naive, but that's a lot of vitriol for a guy with no info on his profile page.

You should be bumped to honorary admin status... +1

In fact Joe's other comment made me think of Smith Rock. I was lucky enough to live in the NW for a few years and climb at Smith, arguably the birth place of US sport climbing.
Certainly sport climbing has changed over the years, that's a whole different can of worms, but if you want to know what it was like; try getting out on any of the classic Smith 10s. Barbecue the Pope, Chicken McNuggets, Wedding Day and Screaming Yellow Zonkers all come to mind.

I'm pretty sure that anyone who has lead one of those routes would say that the experience was anything like doing it on TR.

Brent Apgar wrote: You should be bumped to honorary admin status... +1

Thanks. of course, I am WAY too busy for such a commitment...

wankel7 wrote: If you didnt lead it you didnt send it. TR is almost mindless climbing. When you tie in to the sharp end you are actually engaging your brain.

Agreed. Sport climbing engages the same thrill seeking part of my brain that trad climbing does. I just don't get that when I top rope. They are not the same thing.

(Moreover, If TR=Sport does Sport=Trad at Indian Creek? I don't think so).

DBarton wrote: does Sport=Trad at Indian Creek? I don't think so).

Some might disagree with you on that you don't think trad is sport at IC.

Currently climbing actually, and laughing between goes! Btw, been leading all day ;)

I think top-roping has more in common with bouldering than sport climbing in a lot of ways, particularly at the harder end, because they tend to be about the hardest moves you can possibly do, without the distractions of clipping bolts or gear.

I've actually seen John Gill comment (forget where) that he feels that when doing very tall boulder problems, he doesn't understand why people don't just top rope rather than stacking huge numbers of pads on a rotten landing.

However, I think this point of view disregards the fact that for those people who climb highballs, dealing with the risk can be as rewarding as completing the sequence of moves. This is the same reason why people lead death routes that could just as easily be short top-rope problems.

At the end, I think the distinction is this: sport climbing does have the same general goal as top-roping, but it preserves the "it must be led to count" mentality that has been around for much longer. Also, sometimes it just makes more sense to bolt an area with a fragile cliff line environment. Devils Lake can stand up to the abuse of repeated top roping much better than the soil-covered, down-sloping or chossy top-outs, or simply places where top-access is extremely difficult like much of the Red River Gorge. If we think access problems are bad now there, imagine the damage that would be done if people tried to make hideous webbing-anchors with slung trees and erosion everywhere whenever they wanted to try a route.

People, where is all the love? ? ?

To answer the OP. No, sport climbing is not the same as toproping. Sport climbing is complex toproping. At indian creek, if you have lots of gear the route may be more "sprad" or complex sprad.

Nick Rhoads wrote:Currently climbing actually, and laughing between goes! Btw, been leading all day ;)

Harhar! You sure showed all of us!

Really though, the angry man, johnL, nails it, you're not being thought provoking, you're just making a poor attempt at being clever, and the subsequent discussion (following the example of your op) is subpar. There's nothing new to these threads that hasn't been said before and better in previous threads. Thank you, come again.