Why are we even having this argument about Perma-Draws?

Ok, so I thought about it and I'm willing to make the following concession. If the the route is so overhanging that even back cleaning can result in a ground fall then PD's are permitted. Otherwise they are not. Unfortunately, even in this case PD breakage can not be 100% avoided. But by creating this exception can we now agree that otherwise PD's are simply for convenience?

Dan Petty wrote: ... As a matter of fact, don't rely on guide books to find your climbs either. Develop a sense of adventure and find your own routes to climb. ...

That sounds really fun. Count me in.

Nick Rhoads wrote:Ok, so I thought about it and I'm willing to make the following concession. If the the route is so overhanging that even back cleaning can result in a ground fall then PD's are permitted. Otherwise they are not. Unfortunately, even in this case PD breakage can not be 100% avoided. But by creating this exception can we now agree that otherwise PD's are simply for convenience?

I think that is pretty much the criteria for defining the difference between PD's and project draws. However, being a man of the West I am loathe to declare any ultimatums. But yes, project draws (retrievable w/out a lot of fuss or danger) are lazy. But by being retrievable are also subject to poaching, thus keeping things cosmically even-steven.
Now getting back to the long-term safety issue, chains and steel biners should be insisted upon by the community. The problem with chain though is that you can't have the highly visible "Petzl", which interferes w/ sponsorship.

Mike Lane wrote: I think that is pretty much the criteria for defining the difference between PD's and project draws. However, being a man of the West I am loathe to declare any ultimatums. But yes, project draws (retrievable w/out a lot of fuss or danger) are lazy. But by being retrievable are also subject to poaching, thus keeping things cosmically even-steven. Now getting back to the long-term safety issue, chains and steel biners should be insisted upon by the community. The problem with chain though is that you can't have the highly visible "Petzl", which interferes w/ sponsorship.

Yes, if you must install perma-draws steel chains and biners should be mandatory.

Nick makes some excellent points.
I'm going to tell the managers of the climbing gyms I frequent (and even of those I don't because I'm a civic minded guy) to remove all the perma-draws because of the "added risk."

Nick Rhoads wrote:Ok, so I thought about it and I'm willing to make the following concession.

Everyone is thrilled. We were super worried about your 1970s stance on permadraws.

Nick leaves cool comments. He should move to Rumney, where the perma-draw question has recently surfaced. Then again, he might chop the pathetic gear and the crowds would come back to the Gunks. Stay west, Nick - you're not a local anyway and therefore cannot tell those of us on this side of the continental divide what to do.

Seriously, though: do people not follow and clean sport climbs? What are permanent draws for? The mutuality of lead/follow & clean makes climbing so much fun - even when I'm swinging in space on a massive roof and have to ascend the rope to get back on. Partners are in it together.

DL

I've never been on a route with fixed draws, but it sounds convenient to me. As far as the 'old cloth gear' issue, I've been on a few trad route that have webbing rap stations...if I don't trust the old gear, I can throw on my own...how is that any different? And as for it 'looking ugly', if the area's primary purpose is climbing, I don't care. Compare a few fixed draws to what other sports do to land to make it more accessible...are chair lifts pretty? No.

SirMixALot wrote:Sport climbers suck anyway

You must embrace slab and other unprotectable rock...so you can solo it. Otherwise...its called sport climbing.

pfwein wrote:Nick makes some excellent points. I'm going to tell the managers of the climbing gyms I frequent (and even of those I don't because I'm a civic minded guy) to remove all the perma-draws because of the "added risk."

Climbing gym draws are strictly regulated by the manager in charge (or at least they should be) and everyone climbing on them signs a waiver stating "inherent risks" and "equipment breaks". That's a big difference from outdoor climbing.

In addition from a business standpoint you want to move people through the routes as quickly as possible, hence the PD's and their convenience. For the record I would rather clip my own draws in the gym due to some tattered pieces of trash I've seen in some places.

Since my climbing resume has come under fire I thought I would take the time to try and list the places I have climbed over the last ten years. It will be fun for me to try and remember anyway. In no particular order...

Devils Lake, WI (of course!)
Red River Gorge (haven't been back in many years, lots o' crags)
Jackson Falls, IL
Red Rocks, NV (many times and my favorite)
JTree
Cochise, AZ
MT Lemmon, AZ
Flagstaff/Sedona Area
Taos, NM area
Eldorado Canyon (many times, love it!)
Flatirons (who hasn't?!!?)
Dream Canyon, CO
Sinks Canyon, WY
Wild Iris
Devils Tower
Needles, SD
Spearfish Canyon, SD
San Diego Area (I can't recall the name of the parks)
Foster Falls, TN
HP 40
Horseshoe Canyon Ranch
El Potrero (in retrospect driving over the border wasn't a safe idea)
Reimers Ranch, TX
Enchanted Rock, TX
The Gunks
Rumney (got my ass kicked)
Cathedral Ledge, NH
Ragged Mountain, CT
Rifle (just one day)
Indian Creek (Two days)
Little Cottonwood Canyon, UT
All over the Wind Rivers, WY
Grand Tetons
North Shore of MN (great views!)
Grand Junction, CO Area (Just one route though)
Ouray, CO (ice)

So you can probably notice a strong trad area dominance but there's definitely some sport mixed in and I've climbed on some perma-draws in those areas. So I think I can definitely claim sufficient climbing experience but yes, I could see people claiming my cave experience is lacking. Still, I think I can claim enough experience to at least be allowed to form an opinion.

However, and as I've explained above, I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone, I'm just asking for some straight answers on PD's and their necessity. I believe that if you're going to employ them there should be some concise guidelines for doing so because of the risk and liability involved. (If you don't believe there's any risk and liability involved you can ignore my opinion but I must remind you it only takes one accident for a lawsuit).
If you don't have guidelines or a plan to maintain PD's they can run rampant into places not even the die hard sporto wouldn't agree with and there would be no moral or legal leg to stand on to say they don't belong there, just this mob rule you all call "local ethics".
What if someone has the opinion that PD's are "necessary" on his favorite 5.9 or 5.11 so the warm-up is easier or safer? Are you all going to gang up on him and tell him him doesn't climb hard enough to have an opinion? Does that seem right to you and along the lines of the friendly climbing community we claim to have?

Without order, there is chaos.

Nick Rhoads wrote: Climbing gym draws are strictly regulated by the manager in charge (or at least they should be) and everyone climbing on them signs a waiver stating "inherent risks" and "equipment breaks". That's a big difference from outdoor climbing. In addition from a business standpoint you want to move people through the routes as quickly as possible, hence the PD's and their convenience. For the record I would rather clip my own draws in the gym due to some tattered pieces of trash I've seen in some places.

My mistake also for earlier confusing 'project draws' with permadraws. As for the gym permadraws; don't we agree that this IS the Right Place to have them and for someone to practice and gain skills in todays' environment? Thus avoids the permadraw use outdoors where this discussion expresses its main concern. Keep them in the gym, master your skills ( and pay the high memberships) and then move outdoors when you are good and ready to flash it with style.

It should be left up to the local community to decide whether or not perma-draws are acceptable at their crags.

It is reasonable in some cases, but not all.

I'd like to suggest a few distinctions that might help clear up some of the confusion:

Let's use Project Draws to refer to personal quickdraws that are put up so that an individual (or individuals) can work a project. Regardless of how long they stay up, that person sees the draws as his/her property, and intends to take them down/use them on other climbs.

Let's use Fixed Draws to refer to regular (not steel) quickdraws that are permanently on the route, intended for public use. These often become tattered and grooved, because they are less durable than steel permadraws.

Let's reserve Perma-Draws for steel draws that are designed to be permanently fixed - e.g. they have a draw at one end and a screwlink at the other.

I think it would help discussion if future posters would clarify whether they are against Project Draws, Fixed Draws, or Perma-Draws (or some combination of the above).

In addition, please note that some support Perma-Draws only where draws are already Fixed, but not where there are Project Draws. There are certainly other combinations of beliefs here, but I wanted to start out with some basic definitions. I'm open to any criticism of these terms, but I think it's important we ultimately agree on what they mean so we can understand (if not agree with) each-others' positions.

Also, this is an observation - a lot of the disagreement is between two groups of people:

1) People who think Fixed Draws are a fact and not going anywhere, and thus support Perma-Draws to increase safety.

2) People who think Fixed Draws are bad in the first place and rather than increasing safety with Perma-Draws, we should remove the risk of bad draws entirely by removing all Fixed Draws.

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I understand both points of view, but I think all the evidence points to the fact that Fixed Draws aren't going anywhere. Saying the solution is removing all Fixed Draws is sort of like saying the solution to teen pregnancy is abstinence, not birth control.

Killis Howard wrote: One of my stock answers in the Eternal Debate is "when all you've done is a pinkpoint, you haven't scratched the surface of the route"...

That is complete nonsense.

Some of the posters keep returning to the argument about the problems of cleaning really steep routes. Its worth remembering that fixed draws are only one of the practical ways of dealing with that problem. A long, extendable clip stick with the right fittings can be used to place and remove draws up and through a the more dangerous first three or four bolts (sometimes more). Mine goes to 18 feet. I have seen longer ones. People can be creative and deal with these sorts of problems in different ways. just because one method works doesn't mean that someone can't come up with something better. There may be other ways beyond long stick clips or fixed draws we haven't thought of yet.

md3 wrote:Some of the posters keep returning to the argument about the problems of cleaning really steep routes. Its worth remembering that fixed draws are only one of the practical ways of dealing with that problem. A long, extendable clip stick with the right fittings can be used to place and remove draws up and through a the more dangerous first three or four bolts (sometimes more). Mine goes to 18 feet. I have seen longer ones. People can be creative and deal with these sorts of problems in different ways. just because one method works doesn't mean that someone can't come up with something better. There may be other ways beyond long stick clips or fixed draws we haven't thought of yet.

True, there are, but that doesn't address the other point of perma-draws.

I rock climb because its fun. Some people need to feel like every time they go rock climbing they are showing the size of their balls, or are displaying "better style" than those pansies over in Europe using fixed draws. Usually these are the same people who can't climb harder than 5.9. I know because I used to be one of those people arguing vehemently against PDs. However, as I realized that rock climbing is a silly, FUN thing to do, my feeling of superiority of my "style" became archaic and stupid.

In most cases the presence of fixed draws only matters to the T-RAD people, and they try to make themselves feel better about their "style" by pretending the average person gives a $#%& about some extra metal and nylon on the rock. Sure, sometimes a sensitive ranger comes along, and asks the community to take them down, and we must comply. But until then all of the wanna-be trad ninjas among you need realize that toproping 5.11 and leading 5.9R isn't anything special. You are doing it for fun, just like the rest of us. You just get more of a kick out of your "style", while some people enjoy pushing themselves in a low-commitment, safe setting.

Nobody climbing at a high level care about your definition of a pinkpoint,redpoint, brownpoint,bluepoint,etc. They are out there enjoying themselves on their fixed draws, and we can all get together at the end of the day and enjoy our mutual appreciation for this pointless hobby of destroying millions of years of geological activity with our polishing shoes, our crack-widening and whitening hands, our flake-ripping-off and groove creating gear, and our metal bolts.

So in the end, the reason we are having this argument about Perma-draws is that some people like climbing on them for convenience, and some people feel like they need to spray about their "superior ethics". It will never end.

Phil Lauffen wrote: True, there are, but that doesn't address the other point of perma-draws. I rock climb because its fun. Some people need to feel like every time they go rock climbing they are showing the size of their balls, or are displaying "better style" than those pansies over in Europe using fixed draws. Usually these are the same people who can't climb harder than 5.9. I know because I used to be one of those people arguing vehemently against PDs. However, as I realized that rock climbing is a silly, FUN thing to do, my feeling of superiority of my "style" became archaic and stupid. In most cases the presence of fixed draws only matters to the T-RAD people, and they try to make themselves feel better about their "style" by pretending the average person gives a $#%& about some extra metal and nylon on the rock. Sure, sometimes a sensitive ranger comes along, and asks the community to take them down, and we must comply. But until then all of the wanna-be trad ninjas among you need realize that toproping 5.11 and leading 5.9R isn't anything special. You are doing it for fun, just like the rest of us. You just get more of a kick out of your "style", while some people enjoy pushing themselves in a low-commitment, safe setting. Nobody climbing at a high level care about your definition of a pinkpoint,redpoint, brownpoint,bluepoint,etc. They are out there enjoying themselves on their fixed draws, and we can all get together at the end of the day and enjoy our mutual appreciation for this pointless hobby of destroying millions of years of geological activity with our polishing shoes, our crack-widening and whitening hands, our flake-ripping-off and groove creating gear, and our metal bolts. So in the end, the reason we are having this argument about Perma-draws is that some people like climbing on them for convenience, and some people feel like they need to spray about their "superior ethics". It will never end.

Wayyy tooo ratiionalll!!!! Wayyy too saaane!!! How dare you actually address the issue in a logikal manner! A pink point is on my dogs whiner and the brown point is on the seet of my pants, trust me, I care, I have been trying to get it out for weeks.

Johny Q wrote: How dare you actually address the issue in a logikal manner!

oops, good point!

Shut up everyone! I can climb better than your mom!