Why are we even having this argument about Perma-Draws?

If it is an overhanging route that would be impossible to clean while being lowered or rappelling im all for it.

If there is no fixed pro either you have to climb it twice to get your gear or your belayer has to clean it.

It sounds like that method would mean people might be leaving some of their own gear behind.

Next topic: rap rings. Agh!!! They wear out when you pull your rope. Who is responsible?!? Solution: Every climbable route must top out and have a walk off or it's unclimbable.

Mike R. wrote: Any incident in climbing can have serious concequences, so should we just stop climbing all together? Every beginner can have serious concequences, shall we bann them from the out doors?

We've gone over this, perma-draws are an unnecessary addition of risk. I'm not saying we should ban any type of dangerous activity but should we add risk?

Mike R. wrote:Such conveniences huh? I'll bet the last tourist at the pipe dream was saying to themselves, "how come I didn't know about this convenience, I would be coming here more often if I did." HA! Never. They see the pre hung draws and say what a bunch of lunatics, they scream and suffere just for fun. Sooo many draws and biners have been breaking. Wow. What is that, a total of like 3 over the course of a year? Wow. Huge. Considering that hundreds of thousands of falls occurred this year on fixed gear and three biners broke, while no one actually died, I actually like those odds. I like them more than climbing with a beginner or repelling a 15 pitch face, how come you don't want to bann those activities? You know, people did die from those activities this year, why are they acceptable? Most importatnly on the safety side, pre hung draws make safer clips from sketchy positions, thus, sometimes, pre-hung draws make climbing the routes safer. Especially for the first 2 or three clips. Many cave routes were meant to have pre hung draws so if they were not pre hung, you would have to pre hang them yourself anyway, and doing this on lead can be dangerous depending on how far the cave is off the ground. You know who is responsible for checking the fixed gear on a route I will be climbing on? Me. Not you. Not someone else. Not a green monster. It will be me. I have several replacement biners I carry to the "civilized crags" just for this reason. Just like when you place a piece of gear, or clip a draw to a un-known bolt, or sling a small bush for a repel, the onus is on the climber. If I fail to be responsible, I will have to accept my concequences, just like the punting fool who raps off the end of his rope at El Portraro, or the douche who goes soloing and falls, or the stupid trads that necissitate back country rescues using my tax dollars. Why are you so against the idea of natural selection?

I'm not against your idea of natural selection but that's not the way the real world works. You may be able to accept the consequences but your family may not and sue after your demise.

Mike R. wrote:Please tell me, what is more of a convenience, the pre-hung draws, the pre-place bolts, the pre-placed road for your car, the pre-placed parking lot, or the pre-placed trail that got you to the crag? I think Perma draws are beautiful. I have erotic dreams of them. A climb with pre placed draws is one that is all dressed up, I prefer my girls with cloths on them, though I take them naked as well. I guess one man's betty is anothers ugly betty, tastes differ, deal with it. Because the draws are considered "abandoned" gear by the national forest service, I doubt bubba will have a very good chance at a law suit. Private parties might be in a different place, but most of the climbing in the West is not on public land. I love the idea of suing someone for abandoned gear. The judge would probably ask why you used someones abandoned gear and blame you for your own position, as well as judging you for being a dirt bag climber as he probably should.

You are making risky assumptions here. You might be correct but if you're wrong the consequences could be dire for the entire sport.

Mike R. wrote:Do you ever climb in caves? Do you climb 5.13+ and harder in caves? If you do then what are you talking about? If you have not tried it yet, maybe you should before you decide the future of our sport for us.

In fact I have climbed in caves but it doesn't really matter in this argument if we have or haven't. Stick-clipping through a sport route to hang the draws is possible therefore perma-draws are not needed to climb the route and therefore they are an added unnecessary risk. Their only benefit is convenience. If people are willing to take a broader risk to safety and access by placing perma-draws for convenience then so be it but don't say I didn't warn ya ;)

Or those pesky pre-made harnesses. I saw one break in Cliffhanger, thus, we should all use hand tied swami-belts.

Nick Rhoads wrote: Their only benefit is convenience.

No that is not their only benefit, obviously you have no idea what you are talking about as many other posters have point out. On really steep routes they are in fact safer, rather than trying to follow and clean or lower and clean where you risk taking a big swing at the first couple bolts. You obviously do not have a lot of experience with them so quit trying to force your opinion on everyone else.

There is also a difference between project draws, which I agree is somewhat lazy; and perma-draws which are simply a matter of engineering and typically were wicked hard to install in the first place.

With project draws, they are typically placed by fraiding or brownpointing; and are left behind for short periods. But the climber should by now be well aware that the risk of having them poached is very high and be prepared to take the loss. Permadraws on the other hand are very hard to remove usually due to the sheer steepness.

Mike R. wrote: If you don't even climb this style of climbing, what makes you think you know anything about it? What's wierd from the trad camp is exactly this. Many have little to no experience on difficult and over hanging routes, yet they all have an opinion. Here is a comparison for you: Example #1: I have an opinion on how to bettter institute a program of genetic engineering on chicken eggs here in the USA. I have two chickens and I love them, and for some reason, I think this gives me right to have an opinion on the matter. Example #2: A Graduate student who actually has studied genetic engeeneering has a different opinion on the subject. He does not love chickens, but has studied them and genetic engeenering his whole life. Want to guess who's opinion is more valid? It's not the idiot with no experience in the matter, in either case.

Finally, someone who can lay out the argument in no uncertain terms.

This is exactly why I think it is ok to leave a stash of crash pads everywhere I go. If you don't boulder at V13 or harder you probably just don't understand. Let me break down the logic for you (because if you don't think as hard as I usually do you probably won't be able to figure it out yourself.)

When I'm projecting my latest V14/15 I can't have my pesky legs weighing me down too much, otherwise the FA is going to go to someone else!! The most important element of my training is training myself to use my legs as infrequently as possible (trust me, when you break the V12 barrier you will understand). I have to plan my sending days around the weight of my legs and usually have to wait at least a few days after hiking in a mega-super load crash pads. In order to make my legs resemble toothpicks as much as possible I usually have to talk some of my friends into carrying the crash pads for me. My most trusted friend has the privilege of wheeling me up to my project in a wheelchair on "send day".

Onlookers are sometimes confused by the appearance of a man with paper-clip-like legs being carted around in a wheelchair up in the mountains. But, like anyone else who doesn't climb V13 or harder, they just can't really understand what it is like and the commitment that it requires. On one terrible day when I couldn't find any of my beanie-clad bros to push me up the mountain, I had to crawl ON MY OWN POWER all of the way to my project in order to limit the use of my legs.

The point is, when I leave my wheelchair and my pads at the base of my proj it isn't litter and it isn't laziness; its just the sacrifice that needs to be made for V13 and harder problems to exist. If you don't climb V13, well....deal with it.

p.s. for all you sub-V13 climbers out there I would be more than happy to give you some tips on how to accelerate muscular atrophy in your legs while simultaneously training for bouldering. my single most helpful hint is to put an a harness (ugggh, I know) and suspend yourself a few feet above a treadmill using your friends climbing rope (I know, you are a boulderer and you hate dealing with silly ropes and knots). Once you are above the treadmill turn it on and practice your crawling approach technique by using only your hands. I hope this helps

Dan Petty wrote:Nick its ok to admit that you simply do not know or understand all of the applications of permanent draws. As has already been stated a well equipped route would utilize chains and steel biners with good longevity.

You're missing the whole point, perma-draws are an ADDED risk. It's bad enough to have to rely on the bolts but all we NEED to climb these routes are the bolts not the chains or biners.

It seems I can not say this enough; we all agree on the climbers perspective on this it's the non-climbers perspective that could get us all in trouble. God forbid this goes to a lawsuit situation but if it does a precedent could be set based on the perspective of people who aren't climbers and don't "understand all of the applications of permanent draws".

Oh yeah because nothing can go wrong stick clipping your way up a route and clipping in direct... Why climb when you can spend your days hanging draws instead? Are you going to stick clean the route also?

Top rope anchors at devils lake are killing all the trees and damaging the rock. I think if you can't lead a climb you shouldn't be on it, no more top rope anchors at devils lake!

Nick Rhoads wrote: Stick-clipping through a sport route to hang the draws is possible therefore perma-draws are not needed to climb the route and therefore they are an added unnecessary risk. Their only benefit is convenience.

Incorrect. As I stated, the issue is cleaning/following. Some routes are far safer to lead than follow; thus retrieval of the gear is almost impossible.

I loved the part where he suggests stick clipping your way up the route. Obviously this guy has no idea what he is talking about, stick to your topropes at DL.

Nick Rhoads wrote: You are making risky assumptions here. You might be correct but if you're wrong the consequences could be dire for the entire sport.

I am not making assumptions. This is how the Forest Service classifies all gear left behind. It is classified as abandoned after 24 hours. Their words, not mine. Again, this is only applicable to the majority of climbing in the West, private property is a different matter.

Your argument is hollow and your experience very much does matter in this case. I would say your lack on knowledge on this particular issue shows us how well you know about this issue, which is to say, you do not know it at all. What caves have you climbed in that were pre-hung and that you felt should not have been? I am interested. Where is your argument coming from?

Mike Lane wrote:I really don't waste my time reading climbing mags anymore, just not that into what the latest thing is, I guess; so I cannot reference what is in the RI article. Since I have no outdoor plans yet this weekend (yesterday devoted to putting down our 3 mo. old kitten, my main partner is moving into an apt. due to a pending divorce, and my left shoulder bucket handle slap tear is just snapping and clicking away) I'll kill some time responding to this. More often than not, PD's are left due to the difficulty and danger of cleaning draws on severely steep routes, not easing the placement so its an easier send. Often, you risk decking as high as the 3rd or even 4th bolt if you peel off while following/cleaning. The threat of a lawsuit from some kids lawyer dad is an age-old straw man argument here. There's no precedent, likewise the same could be said for trad gear failing. You cannot dismiss the local-only case by case aspect. That is very much what determines whether or not PD's are appropriate. The City of Rifle enjoys park maintanence fees. The BLM as an agency has a very hard time regulating what is done based on aesthetics when at the same time they allow gas and oil rigs, overgrazing, mining, etc. It does place the onus at a local level, where it belongs. Your statement about outdoor climbing being a workout for some as some sort of despicable act. The essence of the whole Sport V. Trad argument is Athleticism versus Adventure. The problem with Tradiban types is that they judge their vision of outdoor experience as the only viable means; all others forms of outdoor activity are invalid. As a socially liberal libertarian type, I despise such judgmental attitudes. There is a very clear dividing line between Sport's minimal effect on Trad. They mostly happen in exclusive areas from each other. Bolts may bring about increased awareness of climbing activity which may in turn lead to an all-out climbing ban; but ultimately those are always based on nature concerns such as nesting. Typically, if a closure happens because of bolting, it is only sport climbers who lose. What is being lost in this country is what used to be referred to as Frontcountry by land managers. Meaning the opposite of backcountry, it is land set aside for human activity. Take Devils Head, CO. for example. We have bolted the shit out of that mountain. But it is in a frontcountry context in that to get there you drive past several hundred RV's camping for the hundreds of miles of motocross trails. It is human impact amok. But at the same time, these folks are not out in numbers in the backcountry tearing up the tundra and wetlands. The Frontcountry concept is a trade-off as a means to deal with ever-increasing humans wanting to get outside. However, our ever-more intrusive government has been turning away from this kind of functional cooperation and is trending towards more authoritarian us versus them attitudes. Is is simply easier for them (with limited budgets) to find an excuse to just close down access. Great kudos needs to be given to the agencies (like the Eldo staff) who work hard to maintain access even though it is the more difficult path. Perma-Draws fall into the excuse category for land management in that even though most of the intensely steep crags where they exist have had them for years, can provide a reason for closure. The one point I really want to drive home here is that instead of retreating, we should be taking the offensive. Where they have been hanging for years, PD's should be defended by our community aggressively. Consider them leaks in a dike. Let them become a cause for agencies to start limiting us and the flood will begin, leading eventually to having trad-only areas being closed off by a government looking always for the easiest means to limit work. Take a tactic from the NRA. They oppose EVERY gun law, even those that are really decent solutions to some huge societal problems we have. The reasoning being is that they are keeping the battle lines as far away from whats really important to them as possible. We as climbers need to take the same tactic and defend most of what we do even if that means holding your nose to do so. In turn then we should better develop self-policing egregious actions by our less experienced members by simply applying common sense policies. In terms of PD's we can all tell where they are not appropriate, and where they are. It would also be wise to apply basic engineering to them as well, as they should all be chain (not nylon) and have steel biners. On a final note, there are tons of locals with every major climbing area and it is common that they assume maintenance duties.

Thank you! THIS is the best argument for PD's I have ever seen. I can agree 100% that the community must be more aggressive for access. In fact that is partly the point for myself starting this discussion. Personally, I disagree regarding PD's but if I am not the majority in the climbing community I understand that and bow to the democratic process.

Mike Lane wrote: Incorrect. As I stated, the issue is cleaning/following. Some routes are far safer to lead than follow; thus retrieval of the gear is almost impossible.

I may be incorrect but what we have here is a difference of opinion not necessarily of facts.

greenben wrote: Finally, someone who can lay out the argument in no uncertain terms. This is exactly why I think it is ok to leave a stash of crash pads everywhere I go. If you don't boulder at V13 or harder you probably just don't understand. Let me break down the logic for you (because if you don't think as hard as I usually do you probably won't be able to figure it out yourself.) When I'm projecting my latest V14/15 I can't have my pesky legs weighing me down too much, otherwise the FA is going to go to someone else!! The most important element of my training is training myself to use my legs as infrequently as possible (trust me, when you break the V12 barrier you will understand). I have to plan my sending days around the weight of my legs and usually have to wait at least a few days after hiking in a mega-super load crash pads. In order to make my legs resemble toothpicks as much as possible I usually have to talk some of my friends into carrying the crash pads for me. My most trusted friend has the privilege of wheeling me up to my project in a wheelchair on "send day". Onlookers are sometimes confused by the appearance of a man with paper-clip-like legs being carted around in a wheelchair up in the mountains. But, like anyone else who doesn't climb V13 or harder, they just can't really understand what it is like and the commitment that it requires. On one terrible day when I couldn't find any of my beanie-clad bros to push me up the mountain, I had to crawl ON MY OWN POWER all of the way to my project in order to limit the use of my legs. The point is, when I leave my wheelchair and my pads at the base of my proj it isn't litter and it isn't laziness; its just the sacrifice that needs to be made for V13 and harder problems to exist. If you don't climb V13, well....deal with it. p.s. for all you sub-V13 climbers out there I would be more than happy to give you some tips on how to accelerate muscular atrophy in your legs while simultaneously training for bouldering. my single most helpful hint is to put an a harness (ugggh, I know) and suspend yourself a few feet above a treadmill using your friends climbing rope (I know, you are a boulderer and you hate dealing with silly ropes and knots). Once you are above the treadmill turn it on and practice your crawling approach technique by using only your hands. I hope this helps

WTF are you talking about? This is a highly entertaining rant, but I got confused when you begin rambling out of anger about crushing V/14 and a wheelchair. Um, sounds like you may need therapy by the sound of it. Just because you don't know about overhanging sport climbing or hard bouldering does't mean you need to get so angry. I understand you are angry at the elitist attitude that educated opinions generate, but educate yourself some son, you might just find they are deserved.

There is appropriate discussion going on here. This is an example of the community at work trying to keep things contained. Entropy happens everywhere (in this case multi-colored excesses), thus constant vigilance by the community as a whole.

Mike R. wrote:Of course, if you only climb 5.12 at Devils lake on a top-rope, I doubt you would understand what I am talking about. You should check out the great wealth of world class climbing that is pre-hung before you start verbally spewing your very small ideas as if they were facts. It's not very impressive to have opinions you know nothing about. I agree with Mike, if you have ever enjoyed climbing on PD, it's time to take the offensive.

Unfortunately, you seem to know very little about my climbing experience. You should check out my autobiography available at your local book store.

I'm not spewing my ideas as facts, I'm asking for clear concise rebuttal to my opinions. But, how do you know I don't know what I'm talking about? And how do I know that you know what you're talking about? Do you see the dilemma?

wankel7 wrote:If it is an overhanging route that would be impossible to clean while being lowered or rappelling im all for it. If there is no fixed pro either you have to climb it twice to get your gear or your belayer has to clean it. It sounds like that method would mean people might be leaving some of their own gear behind.

+1 Meet in the middle. Ill add,

1. cliff is not in the public (tourist) eye.
2. Durable materials (chains/cable, steel biners)
3. routes that were bolted with fixed draws in mind. (although if these routes are not steep enough to need fixed draws they should be rebolted WHEN NECESSARY to clip from stances.

Use common sense and don't uglify a cliff that doesn't need to be uglified. I like my women better without clothes. But in some cases i am okay with them with clothes on.

Nick Rhoads wrote: I may be incorrect but what we have here is a difference of opinion not necessarily of facts.

I absolutely agree with you that stick-clip fraiding is a viable means of placing the draws, thus I have no sympathy for project draw thefts. But if its real steep you can crater removing draws where the perma draws tend to be plausible.