Why are we even having this argument about Perma-Draws?

I just finished reading the latest on the subject from Rock and Ice and I'm a little baffled. The only argument I've been reading for perma-draws is that they're convenient but there looks to be so many good arguments for not having them. Let me list the ways!

-The reason the issue has arisen is safety. Draws, ropes, and biners have been breaking on perma-draws. I think the obvious solution is that if there's no perma-draws THERE's NOTHING TO BREAK! Duh. The likelihood of this sort of thing is greatly diminished if people just hang and clean their own draws.

-Perma-Draws are ugly and deface the cliff. This is subjective but I think it's more important to point out that it doesn't matter what climbers think it's, what the general user public thinks. These things can be seen as "trash" left by dirty climbers and that can cause serious access issues down the road. Hey, don't blame me, I don't really think it looks like trash but I will bet you hiker/tourist dude probably does.

-In the R and I article it was pointed out that fixed draws help climbers push themselves further because they don't have to worry about clipping. Is that what climbing rock outside is really for? So YOU can get a better workout? Due to the consequences of perma-draws don't you think it might be a better idea to get your pump in the gym, bra? And besides, clipping takes more work therefore you can get a better pump if you clip and even a nice cool down to clean the draws ;)

-Ok, ok fine you MUST have perma-draws. Fine, whatever. So, who's going to maintain and pay for all this? The local climbers association? That's cool I guess as long as it's actually organized (how many really are?) but what happens when there's an accident? What happens when something breaks and Rich Jim-Bo's 15 year-old son decks? They are going to look for someone to blame, that's what will happen and that person or group of persons will be the ones who maintain the perma-draws. That's not a responsibility I would want to have, do you? Do you think a park manager will look favorably on climbers access after they are slapped with a lawsuit all because it's more convenient?

In sum, I think there's just too many risk associated with Perma-Draws, yea sure it would be nice to have them everywhere but at what cost? If you have ways to refute what I've stated above by all means please give them but in a articulate way would be nice.

Also, please don't hide behind "This is a locals issue" argument, that's a cop-out. How "climbers" act in one place effects how we are viewed across the board, especially in the age of the internet where stories spread far and wide.

If you're sick of reading about perma-draws DON'T READ THIS and go climbing.

The first time I saw draws left in place all over was several years ago at the Motherlode. My first thought was that someone sure has alot of extra gear and cash available to just leave the stuff in place. But then realized that they were purposly left due to the extreme angle and difficulty of the routes. Unsightly? Possibly. But it did encourage me to attempt routes harder than I normally would because the draws were in place.

Now as the years go by, and if the same draws are still hanging on those same routes, I would imagine there comes a time when alot of them will be going bad and weakening,, possibly all at the same time due to the intensity and number of new routes that were set during those early Y2K years. So when is the right time to replace? Who foots the bill? (certainly not the guy who nicely left his originals there for our convenience) Or has the time come to remove them and move on? Should we be more selective in what kind of route gets permadraws of any kind in the future , or is it a local issue as Nick says?

There are many routes where bolts cannot be safely placed within reach of the climbing holds. Are you suggesting people bring up 4ft slings and go through the tedious task of equipping and cleaning these routes each time when a chain and biner provide a semi permanent solution which would only require occasional checking? Increased number of unsafe clips while at physical limit and you think a handful of permadraw related accidents is bad. Also, many crags are never accessed by the non climbing public and/or access requirements do not discourage permadraw use. Do you think I want an unsightly concrete path going up the mountain in Zion NP? Nope, but its there for tourist convenience. It would be a stretch to say permadraws ruin a landscape like the roads, towers, and other facilities put in place for tourists over time.

Dan Petty wrote:There are many routes where bolts cannot be safely placed within reach of the climbing holds. Are you suggesting people bring up 4ft slings and go through the tedious task of equipping and cleaning these routes each time when a chain and beaner provide a semi permanent solution which would only require occasional checking? Increased number of unsafe clips while at physical limit and you think a handful of permadraw related accidents is bad.

Good point but yes, I am suggesting people go through the "tedious" task because no perma-draws assures no perma-draw failure. One incident could have serious consequences. Key words you use are "semi permanent" and "occasional checking". As you point out someone still has to check them. Who is responsible for this and how do you protect them from liability? Climbing falls from "unsafe clips" are an inherent risk associated with climbing and the climber themselves and blame can be placed on the climber and not the installer/maintainer of permanent equipment (since there isn't any besides the bolt but that's a different issue).

Dan Petty wrote:Also, many crags are never accessed by the non climbing public and/or access requirements do not discourage permadraw use. Do you think I want an unsightly concrete path going up the mountain in Zion NP? Nope, but its there for tourist convenience. It would be a stretch to say permadraws ruin a landscape like the roads, towers, and other facilities put in place for tourists over time.

I totally agree with you here but tourists see the path as a convenience for everyone and perma-draws etc as a convenience for a specific user group they know nothing about. I think we can all agree that the path is a similar convenience to perma-draws however the majority of users might not be climbers and see perma-draws in a different light. In area's where climbers are the majority users you would be correct but this still doesn't solve the safety and liability issue.

Inherent risk of clipping bolts applies just as much to clipping booty gear, slung rap trees, slung boulders, and permadraws. Bolts fail on sport routes, rock fails on trad routes. How is permadraw failure any different? It goes back to climber complacency. If you clip permadraws you have an obligation to check them for your own safety, just like you check everything else you use to climb. If you check it and it is not in good conditions and you don't replace/remove, then you're an asshole, but that's it.

Nick Rhoads wrote: Good point but yes, I am suggesting people go through the "tedious" task because no perma-draws assures no perma-draw failure. One incident could have serious consequences. Key words you use are "semi permanent" and "occasional checking". As you point out someone still has to check them. Who is responsible for this and how do you protect them from liability? Climbing falls from "unsafe clips" are an inherent risk associated with climbing and the climber themselves and blame can be placed on the climber and not the installer/maintainer of permanent equipment (since there isn't any besides the bolt but that's a different issue). I totally agree with you here but tourists see the path as a convenience for everyone and perma-draws etc as a convenience for a specific user group they know nothing about. I think we can all agree that the path is a similar convenience to perma-draws however the majority of users might not be climbers and see perma-draws in a different light. In area's where climbers are the majority users you would be correct but this still doesn't solve the safety and liability issue.

Any incident in climbing can have serious concequences, so should we just stop climbing all together? Every beginner can have serious concequences, shall we bann them from the out doors?

Such conveniences huh? I'll bet the last tourist at the pipe dream was saying to themselves, "how come I didn't know about this convenience, I would be coming here more often if I did." HA! Never. They see the pre hung draws and say what a bunch of lunatics, they scream and suffere just for fun.

Sooo many draws and biners have been breaking. Wow. What is that, a total of like 3 over the course of a year? Wow. Huge. Considering that hundreds of thousands of falls occurred this year on fixed gear and three biners broke, while no one actually died, I actually like those odds. I like them more than climbing with a beginner or repelling a 15 pitch face, how come you don't want to bann those activities? You know, people did die from those activities this year, why are they acceptable?

Most importatnly on the safety side, pre hung draws make safer clips from sketchy positions, thus, sometimes, pre-hung draws make climbing the routes safer. Especially for the first 2 or three clips. Many cave routes were meant to have pre hung draws so if they were not pre hung, you would have to pre hang them yourself anyway, and doing this on lead can be dangerous depending on how far the cave is off the ground.

You know who is responsible for checking the fixed gear on a route I will be climbing on? Me. Not you. Not someone else. Not a green monster. It will be me. I have several replacement biners I carry to the "civilized crags" just for this reason. Just like when you place a piece of gear, or clip a draw to a un-known bolt, or sling a small bush for a repel, the onus is on the climber. If I fail to be responsible, I will have to accept my concequences, just like the punting fool who raps off the end of his rope at El Portraro, or the douche who goes soloing and falls, or the stupid trads that necissitate back country rescues using my tax dollars. Why are you so against the idea of natural selection? Please tell me, what is more of a convenience, the pre-hung draws, the pre-place bolts, the pre-placed road for your car, the pre-placed parking lot, or the pre-placed trail that got you to the crag?

I think Perma draws are beautiful. I have erotic dreams of them. A climb with pre placed draws is one that is all dressed up, I prefer my girls with cloths on them, though I take them naked as well. I guess one man's betty is anothers ugly betty, tastes differ, deal with it.

Because the draws are considered "abandoned" gear by the national forest service, I doubt bubba will have a very good chance at a law suit. Private parties might be in a different place, but most of the climbing in the West is not on public land. I love the idea of suing someone for abandoned gear. The judge would probably ask why you used someones abandoned gear and blame you for your own position, as well as judging you for being a dirt bag climber as he probably should.

Do you ever climb in caves? Do you climb 5.13+ and harder in caves? If you do then what are you talking about? If you have not tried it yet, maybe you should before you decide the future of our sport for us.

I really don't waste my time reading climbing mags anymore, just not that into what the latest thing is, I guess; so I cannot reference what is in the RI article. Since I have no outdoor plans yet this weekend (yesterday devoted to putting down our 3 mo. old kitten, my main partner is moving into an apt. due to a pending divorce, and my left shoulder bucket handle slap tear is just snapping and clicking away) I'll kill some time responding to this.

More often than not, PD's are left due to the difficulty and danger of cleaning draws on severely steep routes, not easing the placement so its an easier send. Often, you risk decking as high as the 3rd or even 4th bolt if you peel off while following/cleaning.

The threat of a lawsuit from some kids lawyer dad is an age-old straw man argument here. There's no precedent, likewise the same could be said for trad gear failing.

You cannot dismiss the local-only case by case aspect. That is very much what determines whether or not PD's are appropriate. The City of Rifle enjoys park maintanence fees. The BLM as an agency has a very hard time regulating what is done based on aesthetics when at the same time they allow gas and oil rigs, overgrazing, mining, etc. It does place the onus at a local level, where it belongs.

Your statement about outdoor climbing being a workout for some as some sort of despicable act. The essence of the whole Sport V. Trad argument is Athleticism versus Adventure. The problem with Tradiban types is that they judge their vision of outdoor experience as the only viable means; all others forms of outdoor activity are invalid. As a socially liberal libertarian type, I despise such judgmental attitudes. There is a very clear dividing line between Sport's minimal effect on Trad. They mostly happen in exclusive areas from each other. Bolts may bring about increased awareness of climbing activity which may in turn lead to an all-out climbing ban; but ultimately those are always based on nature concerns such as nesting. Typically, if a closure happens because of bolting, it is only sport climbers who lose.

What is being lost in this country is what used to be referred to as Frontcountry by land managers. Meaning the opposite of backcountry, it is land set aside for human activity. Take Devils Head, CO. for example. We have bolted the shit out of that mountain. But it is in a frontcountry context in that to get there you drive past several hundred RV's camping for the hundreds of miles of motocross trails. It is human impact amok. But at the same time, these folks are not out in numbers in the backcountry tearing up the tundra and wetlands. The Frontcountry concept is a trade-off as a means to deal with ever-increasing humans wanting to get outside.

However, our ever-more intrusive government has been turning away from this kind of functional cooperation and is trending towards more authoritarian us versus them attitudes. Is is simply easier for them (with limited budgets) to find an excuse to just close down access. Great kudos needs to be given to the agencies (like the Eldo staff) who work hard to maintain access even though it is the more difficult path.

Perma-Draws fall into the excuse category for land management in that even though most of the intensely steep crags where they exist have had them for years, can provide a reason for closure. The one point I really want to drive home here is that instead of retreating, we should be taking the offensive. Where they have been hanging for years, PD's should be defended by our community aggressively. Consider them leaks in a dike. Let them become a cause for agencies to start limiting us and the flood will begin, leading eventually to having trad-only areas being closed off by a government looking always for the easiest means to limit work.

Take a tactic from the NRA. They oppose EVERY gun law, even those that are really decent solutions to some huge societal problems we have. The reasoning being is that they are keeping the battle lines as far away from whats really important to them as possible. We as climbers need to take the same tactic and defend most of what we do even if that means holding your nose to do so. In turn then we should better develop self-policing egregious actions by our less experienced members by simply applying common sense policies. In terms of PD's we can all tell where they are not appropriate, and where they are. It would also be wise to apply basic engineering to them as well, as they should all be chain (not nylon) and have steel biners. On a final note, there are tons of locals with every major climbing area and it is common that they assume maintenance duties.

Of course, if you only climb 5.12 at Devils lake on a top-rope, I doubt you would understand what I am talking about. You should check out the great wealth of world class climbing that is pre-hung before you start verbally spewing your very small ideas as if they were facts. It's not very impressive to have opinions you know nothing about.

I agree with Mike, if you have ever enjoyed climbing on PD, it's time to take the offensive.

R.S. wrote: If I find a draw on a sport route and take it, I'm a piece of shit thief.

Thats simply not true. If you "find" 10 draws on a sport route you are a piece of shit thief, if you find ONE then it is booty. Huge difference I would hope you can recognize.

R.S. wrote: Man, I'm sorry you're having a such a bad day. I hope your resort to smack talking on the internets helps you feel better.

Not trying to "talk smack" you seemed honestly confused between stealing a line of permadraws and getting a bail biner.

R.S. wrote: Nope. Don't climb 13+, but if I did, I'd place my own draws and then clean them after I was done. What gets me is this: If I find a piece of gear on a trad route, it's booty. Woohoo. Rack gets bigger. If I find a draw on a sport route and take it, I'm a piece of shit thief.

If you don't even climb this style of climbing, what makes you think you know anything about it? What's wierd from the trad camp is exactly this. Many have little to no experience on difficult and over hanging routes, yet they all have an opinion. Here is a comparison for you:

Example #1: I have an opinion on how to bettter institute a program of genetic engineering on chicken eggs here in the USA. I have two chickens and I love them, and for some reason, I think this gives me right to have an opinion on the matter.

Example #2: A Graduate student who actually has studied genetic engeeneering has a different opinion on the subject. He does not love chickens, but has studied them and genetic engeenering his whole life.

Want to guess who's opinion is more valid? It's not the idiot with no experience in the matter, in either case.

R.S. wrote: Yet you deleted a post saying this thread was started by a guy who climbs...wherever you said and that he didn't have a clue. As for confusion...no I'm not that guy. I just think this is a stupid subject. I think Perma-Draws are dumb and a sign of laziness. You want to just clip draws, go to the gym.

I believe your thought process shows us what true signs of laziness looks like.

R.S. wrote: Yet you deleted a post saying this thread was started by a guy who climbs...wherever you said and that he didn't have a clue. As for confusion...no I'm not that guy.

I said exactly what the poster above you said, of course a guy from devils lake isn't going to understand the benefits of perma draws. And apparently you ARE that guy because you don't understand the difference between stealing permadraws and a bail biner.

R.S. wrote:

Is that supposed to mean that since you admittedly know nothing about steep over-hanging climbing you are acknowledging that you have let others decide your opinion for you? I congratulate you on admitting your shortcomings. Next time you have an emotionally regurgitated opinion on something that you know nothing about I suggest you call Glen Beck.

R.S. wrote: Still doing it.

You're still forming uneducated opinions. Either about what someone you don't know can climb, or ethics about climbs you can't do. Still doing it!

R.S wrote:I just think this is a stupid subject. I think Perma-Draws are dumb and a sign of laziness. You want to just clip draws, go to the gym.

With that attitude you better be building your own gear anchors even when there are bolted anchors... clipping the bolts would be pretty lazy. If you just want to clip bolted anchors, go to the gym. As a matter of fact, don't rely on guide books to find your climbs either. Develop a sense of adventure and find your own routes to climb. If you want someone to point out the climbs for you, go to the gym.. Oh, and don't drive a car, or buy pre-manufactured gear, or rely on anyone to assist you in any way in life. That's lazy.

Has it occurred to you that there is a group of people that likes climbing but doesn't feel obligated to pay a gym membership? Do you realize that there is rock that climbs well but is unprotectable using removeable gear? It certainly doesn't seem so.

Down with Perma Draws!! Stop being such wussies, hang and clean your own gear. Now, Im going climbing.

Dailey wrote:Down with Perma Draws!! Stop being such wussies, hang and clean your own gear. Now, Im going climbing.

Another 5.12 climber showing us how little he knows about some of the aspects of this activity. Just hang em up huh? Just like that? Even when the bolt was placed in such a way that you can't hang the draw from the clipping stance? What if it's dangerous to take them down on top-rope because of the nature of the over-hang, and it's impossible, literally, to clean it on repel? Maybe we should just all punt on 5.12 slab and this problem would be solved.

Dan Petty wrote:Inherent risk of clipping bolts applies just as much to clipping booty gear, slung rap trees, slung boulders, and permadraws. Bolts fail on sport routes, rock fails on trad routes. How is permadraw failure any different? It goes back to climber complacency. If you clip permadraws you have an obligation to check them for your own safety, just like you check everything else you use to climb. If you check it and it is not in good conditions and you don't replace/remove, then you're an asshole, but that's it.

Damn, I should have started this on a day I'm not working, thus I will try my best to keep up.

Dan, again you are generally correct. However, the problem is that perma-draws can be classified differently from rock failing, etc. Rock failing is an inherent risk unrelated to a climber or route-bolter themselves so we can write that one off. Bolt failure is a much closer example but I see bolts as a necessary evil with a good longevity while perma-draws are an unnecessary added risk with a much lower longevity. Slung raps are also a necessary evil but again the difference is that perma draws are an unnecessary addition to an already risky situation.

I also agree that in reality it's up to the climber to check and asses equipment but what I'm saying is that the courts might decide otherwise and therefore are we ready to take that risk?

Nick its ok to admit that you simply do not know or understand all of the applications of permanent draws. As has already been stated a well equipped route would utilize chains and steel biners with good longevity.

If it is an overhanging route that would be impossible to clean while being lowered or rappelling im all for it.

If there is no fixed pro either you have to climb it twice to get your gear or your belayer has to clean it.

It sounds like that method would mean people might be leaving some of their own gear behind.